[FC] RE: Corvanatics Digest, Vol 19, Issue 5
Steve Turner
karknut61 at msn.com
Thu Aug 10 14:08:35 EDT 2006
Hello gang; That was a very convincing argument put forth in favor of the
Chevrolet Corvair Greenbriar as the 'true' first mini van. As the owner,
back in the 60's of a VW Microbus, bone stock we took our young family to
Florida one spring. The trip down there was uneventful, but on the way back
we were traveling on I-75 in Ohio when we encountered a strong headwind.
Soon I was fighting to keep the van moving at 45 mph and when that failed I
exited and we continued homeward via blue highways. A good crosswind also
would create havoc with that van! Does that mean I side with the 'vair
claim? A firm maybe is all I can manage because, as has been pointed out
things change over time and what was perhaps the first minivan, the VW,
morphed into the second, better minivan in the Greenbriar and then Chrysler
continued the trend, further refining it. Just my thoughts. Steve
>From: corvanatics-request at corvair.org
>Reply-To: corvanatics at corvair.org
>To: corvanatics at corvair.org
>Subject: Corvanatics Digest, Vol 19, Issue 5
>Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 12:00:02 -0400 (EDT)
>
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>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. SPAM blocking (Bryan Blackwell)
> 2. What's in a name? (Rad Davis)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 14:19:11 -0400
>From: Bryan Blackwell <bryan at skiblack.com>
>Subject: [FC] SPAM blocking
>To: Virtual Vairs <virtualvairs at corvair.org>
>Cc: Corvanatics AB <corvanatics at corvair.org>
>Message-ID: <ff1fcc17702c3633100fc7e511ceeea4 at skiblack.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
>Hi folks,
>
>I have recently implemented some more aggressive SPAM blocking -
>specifically using the SORBS service (http://www.us.sorbs.net/) which
>uses a list of submitted hosts. This has significantly cut down on
>SPAM - we were getting it at the rate of 2 to 1 (that's with other
>anti-spam measures in place that stopped about 1/3 of the messages).
>To make things worse, our club pass through addresses were generating
>complaints from AOL because of the amount of SPAM.
>
>Unfortunately, this has caught a couple of legitimate hosts, most
>significantly Earthlink. I have already sent them a note on the topic,
>if you get a bounce message it would be helpful if you forward it to
>your ISP's help address. You can also let me know if you are having
>posting problems at bryanblackwell62 at yahoo.com. Sorry for the
>inconvenience.
>--
>Bryan Blackwell bryan at skiblack.com
>http://autoxer.skiblack.com/
> Corvairs: '61 Lakewood, '64 Greenbrier, '65 Corsa, '66 Corsa
> '69 Road Runner, '97 Ford F-150, '99 Neon R/T
>"Why do something if you're not going to obsess about it?"
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 14:25:30 -0400
>From: Rad Davis <rad.davis at comcast.net>
>Subject: [FC] What's in a name?
>To: corvanatics at corvair.org
>Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060809141454.02b9c4c0 at 127.0.0.1>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
>This is my reply to Jeff Stewart on the Virtual Vairs list, who made the
>comment that VW deserved credit for having built the "first minivan." Kent
>Sullivan suggested I post it here as well...
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>I agree, and I don't.
>
>I can't argue about the chronology of the matter The VW Type II came
>first. However, there may be a definitional problem.
>
>Let's look at what Chrysler specifically designed the Caravan/Voyager to
>do:
>
>1) carry six (standard) or nine (long wheelbase) people and some luggage.
>2) in (American) car-like comfort
>3) at (American) car-like speeds
>4) with car-like handling and sight lines.
>5) and park it in a low-ceiling garage with a low door opening
>6) low step-over height
>7) no driveshaft hump
>
>The Deluxe Greenbrier meets all of these criteria (for 1960-65) except
>4. It was, in fact, designed to do so in the same way the Chrysler
>minivans were. Nothing with forward controls is going to satisfy item 4
>fully, so if we insist on the front axle being forward of the driver's
>feet, neither the VW nor the Chevrolet was the first minivan.
>
>If we allow Mary Housewife the ability to learn to drive a forward control
>without trauma, we still have the minor problem that a 1960-1965 VW
>Microbus (Type II) has a maximum of 44 HP and, if loaded with nine people,
>will max out at about 50 MPH on level ground. Hit a hill, and you're down
>in the 35 MPH range and grateful you didn't remove the reduction
>boxes. This definitely fails item 3. My Greenbrier, by comparison, has
>transported six people and 500 lbs of luggage (band equipment) at 60-80 MPH
>on the superslab (usually I-40 in NC) in summer. Uphill, downhill, doesn't
>much matter. And it gets 20+ MPG while doing it with a basically stock
>drivetrain. That's car-like performance with better than car-like fuel
>economy for the day. Anybody with a Falcon or Rambler wagon would have been
>happy to do as well at that vehicle's max gross.
>
>The original VW Type II was designed for narrow European city
>streets. About the only dimension it could stand to be large in was
>height. Sure enough, a stock Type II won't fit through a 1960 American
>garage door. My greenbrier does. It does it by inches, but it fits. Win
>on item 5: Greenbrier.
>
>Likewise, the streets in Europe were often uneven or cobblestone in
>1960. The Type II VW has lots of ground clearance to cope with this. It's
>less than 18" to the floor in my greenbrier. It's not in a contemporary
>VW. Win on item 6: the Chevy.
>
>Item 2 is the most subjective of the bunch. And if there's one item other
>than control effort where both vehicles are clearly substandard compared to
>a 1963 passenger car, I'd have to say it's the ride. Having said that, VW
>torsion springs aren't known for their gentleness or length of travel. A
>Greenbrier (especially with the pre-bumper-height law rear springs) rides
>better. Win on item 2: the 'Brier.
>
>Note: I am NOT slamming the VW type II. Car engineering is an
>evolutionary process. The Greenbrier was, as GM freely admitted (in the
>SAE tech paper, among other places) an American response to the existence
>and success of the VW type II. Of course it was better at most things--it
>was a 5 year newer design that was optimized for the American market.
>
>More to the point - it's a lot closer to a consumer minivan than the
>contemporary VW is. VW designed the original type 2 as a freight vehicle
>first, then put seats in it. The Corvair 95 van body was intended for
>station wagon and freight use from day one.
>
>VW took the lessons to heart, however. The T2 VW van had the type 4 engine
>(up to 70 HP) and wasn't so tall. Definitely not a speed demon, but much
>better than the original. Can a loaded stock loaf-bus keep up with a
>loaded stock greenbrier? Probably not, or I wouldn't have seen so many
>transvair conversions on this chassis.
>
>So which was the first minivan? Id say that depends on whose definition
>you use. If we're talking about a vehicle intended to replace the American
>station wagon with a one-box design, I'd have to say that the Greenbrier is
>a lot closer to what Chrysler was trying to do 20 years later than anything
>VW did before the Vanagon (T3) with Wasserboxer, which is, incidentally,
>contemporaneous with the first-generation Chrysler minivan.
>
>Sources:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Type_2
>http://rad.davis.home.comcast.net/fc1.html
>
>
>
>
>At 10:45 AM 8/7/2006 -0700, you wrote:
> >cab forward" and/or "we invented the
> >mini-van" commercials from Chrysler?
> >
> >
> >
> >I think VW gets the credit for inventing the mini-van, despite what Lee
> >claims. And it doesn't get anymore "cab forward" than a split window VW
> >bus! Jeff
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>__________________________________________________________________________
>Rad Davis: rad.davis at comcast.net
>Corvairs--65, 66 Corsa coupes, '65 'brier Deluxe http://www.corvair.org/
>Keeper of the Forward Control Corvair Primer:
>http://www.mindspring.com/~corvair/fc1.html
>"We did Nebraska in seven minutes today. I think that's probably the best
>way to do Nebraska." --Brian Shul, _Sled Driver_
>
>
>
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>End of Corvanatics Digest, Vol 19, Issue 5
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