[FC] What's in a name?

Fri Aug 11 10:45:50 EDT 2006

When I first read this, my reaction was "don't feed the trolls."  It's a 
standard property of internet discussions that someone will say something 
inflammatory just to get a reaction.  Such people are called trolls in the 
vernacular, and the only thing worth doing about them is to ignore them.

Then I reconsidered, and decided that maybe somebody accusing me of 
"torturing data" maybe didn't mean it personally, despite a slam elsewhere 
that we corvair people take our cars too seriously.

So I'll treat this as a legitimate rebuttal and address it as such.  My 
apologies to everyone else if I'm feeding a troll--we'll know soon enough 
one way or the other.

After doing some semantic analysis, I think what you're trying to say is:

The VW Type II was the first minivan because:

1) driving characteristics don't matter (bottom of para 2)
2) VW built passenger vans longer than GM did  and started earlier (top of 
para 3)
3) GM's people-movers didn't do as well in the market as VWs (bottom of 
para 3)

and a whole lot of unrelated emotional verbiage about how corvair people 
have a martyr complex and are therefore hurting their own cause.

My reply:

OK, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.  We'll use your 
criteria.  If handling characteristics don't matter (and neither do a lot 
of other things, given what you didn't mention in your rebuttal), and what 
does matter is duration of production and continued demand for the product, 
then we'll use that yardstick.

  Chrysler coined the "minivan" term as a product name.  They used it to 
describe a front-engine vehicle using a powertrain from a car with an 
oversize box body on the back to haul more people and/or stuff than a 
conventional station wagon of the time could.  Notable features: at least a 
1/2 ton load rating and seating for at least eight passengers.

By this definition, neither the VW nor the Greenbrier is even vaguely the 
first production minivan.  The earliest one I know of is the 1935 Chevrolet 
Suburban, but I suspect that there were similar production vehicles built 
earlier - probably in Europe.  I don't know, for instance, when IHC started 
building the Caryall.

Suburbans are still in production.  I'd say that trumps your 1949 - 1992 
production range.
Suburbans are very popular and always have been.  More popular than the VW 
type II? I don't know.  Possibly not, given that VW is still building the 
second-generation bus in Brazil.

So who's torturing data now?

Disclaimer:  I've never owned a VW Type II. I've driven several, and 
thought they were cool, but have never desired one.  I have owned, and 
driven a VW type I.  There were some things I really liked about the car 
(sturdy simplicity).  There were other things I really hated (cheesy finish 
items, limited work space).  I always thought type IV were the best 
air-cooled VW, even though they were unpopular.  I've owned a Greenbrier 
since 1989 and have put about 100,000 miles on it.  Never owned, or wanted 
a Suburban.

Oh, as for taking it too seriously or having a martyr complex: I like 
corvairs.  I grew up with corvairs.  I own two.  Neither is a daily driver 
anymore, although the 'brier does get driven an average of once a week in 
summer (they salt here), usually to carry stuff.  Engineering advancement 
has finally caught up with the car, after only 40 years.  Corvairs are a 
hobby with a practical side.  They're fun.  They're not my life.  And yes, 
I do have a life.

At 12:30 PM 8/10/2006 -0700, you wrote:
>There is no definitional problem.  Let me start by saying I don't own a 
>Greenbrier but I do own a Rampside.  I've owned 3 VW Busses.
>
>The Volkswagen was the first minivan.  Now for the record VW called it a 
>"station wagon."  They may not have done a great job, but it was the first 
>mini van.  Once again data has been tortured to say what someone wants it 
>to.  By saying it wasn't the first because it isn't an American design 
>means nothing.  By saying it wasn't the first because it drove poorly in 
>the wind means nothing.  By saying it wasn't the first just because you 
>don't like it, well you get my drift.
>
>As far as better, I don't know.  I've driven a Greenbrier, and driven my 
>Rampside quite a lot, and I have to say I prefer the Bus hands down.  I 
>don't get any more adverse driving characteristics than any other 
>brick-shaped vehicle.  Besides that, the Bus came out in 1949, and the 
>family ended somewhere in the late 80s early 90s.  The Bus morphed into 
>the Vanagon, which in the beginning was just a squared off Bus, then the 
>waterboxer in the same Vanagon body.  That's about 40 years of a 
>vehicle.  The Greenbrier lasted 4 years.  The successor of the GB was a 
>flat nose van that did not do well at all, and was a different 
>family.  Actually it doesn't appear to me that any of Chevy's minivans 
>have done all that well.  There has to be something said about 
>longevity.  Oh I know, it doesn't count because people like their 
>Volkswagens more than people like their Chevys.
>
>There was a post on VV not too long ago I wish I would have saved.  It was 
>a writer that said Corvair people were the worst because of how anal we 
>are.  I had to laugh because I thought it described our group to a 
>"T."  Of course there was an uproar.  This is exactly the thing that gets 
>bad press on our cars, people saying how much better the Corvair is and 
>then we play the beaten down underdog.
>
>Now, I don't want to come off as sounding anti-Greenbrier.  I would like 
>to have a Greenbrier, I'm sure I'd enjoy it.  But give the credit where it 
>is due and get over it.
>
>Just my 2 cents here.
>
>
>Mike Clark
>Stockbridge, Georgia
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__________________________________________________________________________
Rad Davis:                                        rad.davis at comcast.net
Corvairs--65, 66 Corsa coupes, '65 'brier Deluxe   http://www.corvair.org/
Keeper of the Forward Control Corvair Primer: 
http://www.mindspring.com/~corvair/fc1.html
"We did Nebraska in seven minutes today. I think that's probably the best 
way to do Nebraska."                            --Brian Shul, _Sled Driver_