[FC] Springs for "working" Rampside (Now Brakes)

Sun May 17 21:17:24 EDT 2015

If you are worried about brakes I suggest you spring for Porterfield 
Brakes shoes in the R-4S compound.  
<http://www.porterfield-brakes.com/>  They are temperature stable and 
coefficient of friction stable from 30 degrees to 1,100 F degrees with 
no out-gassing .  I have those shoes on all my Corvair that have not 
been converted to disk brakes.  Cast iron fined drums are available from 
Summit Racing and the ultimate brake drum from Musclecarbrakes.com 
(cryo-cooled).  I use their trick spring kits with RPVs on my Rampside.  
Disk brakes are available if you convert to power booster MC.
Jim Davis

On 5/17/2015 12:45 PM, Doc via Corvanatics wrote:
> Bill,
>   
> What you wrote is absolutely correct.  I did mention a  dual cylinder in my
> first post but failed to raise the red flag on brakes  anywhere nearly as
> high as you did.  Bravo.  Both on and off list,  a number of people who
> responded on this train bragged about their  FCs' ability to carry a load uphill.
>   You brought to light the danger of  carrying that load downhill.  Yes,
> skidding off a cliff is much worse than  replacing and engine.
>   
> I don't know if I would call myself obsessed with the engine  as the weak
> link.  I merely submitted a series of responses.  After  Hank's initial
> question, the subject changed from suspension load to the engine  and that is
> where it stayed; until now.  If it can be said that I have  obsessed on the
> engine, you could call me guilty of serial obsession.  Over  the years, I have
> "obsessed" over tire safety, fans, engines most recently and,  yes, brakes
> among other things.
>   
> Perhaps the highest value of VV is the tips and advice on  safety issues.
> Your topic more than mine is a shining example of  that.  These topics have
> great value to the "newbies" but also for those  who feel they are "old
> hands" at the idiosyncrasies of our Corvairs.  Many  do not give their brakes a
> thought until it is too late.
>   
> Something implied but not discussed in your statement is the  subject of
> brake fade.  This nasty brake issue may allow false  confidence until it
> raises its ugly head and then it is too late.  Here is  the scenario....  As you
> say, brakes of the 60s are poor by today's  standards.  They were considered
> adequate at the time but under certain  conditions could fail even when
> new.  Most of us do not drive our vehicles  as if we were in competition.
> Econo-Runs don't count.  :-)   Without getting too far into the physics, the
> braking process basically turns  the kinetic energy of a vehicle in motion into
> heat energy in the brakes as it  slows down.  You may have seen the glow of
> cherry red brakes shining from  beneath a Formula 1 race car on TV as it
> brakes into a curve.  Those brakes  were designed and built with "no cost
> spared" to handle the heat.  For the  brakes to be used repeatedly or for a
> single lengthy use, they must dissipate  heat from the previous braking event.
> Our standard brakes are poor at  this.  If you have an emergency stop, the
> brakes will probably work fine if  they are in good condition.  Several
> emergency stops in quick succession  are another matter.  The brakes get very hot
> and can fail.  I was  involved in a discussion some time back about
> replacing our standard steel drums  with aluminum drums with cooling fins.  From a
> fade perspective, this is a  vast improvement over the stock brakes though
> still not anywhere near the  performance of disk brakes.  The main point is
> that you may go along for  years with only "normal" braking duty which is
> perfectly adequate.  This  could give you false confidence in your brakes.
> Then one day, you decide  to load up the old Rampside to deliver the load down
> in the valley.  You  think, "I will be driving downhill with the load and
> uphill without the  load.  No problem."  You could consider those downhill
> conditions to  be an extended semi-emergency braking experience.  Your
> perfectly good  "normal driving" experience has now become your worst nightmare.  By
> the  way, big-rig drivers learn early in their careers to use a low gear in
> their  trannys on downhill grades to use "engine braking"  to relieve some
> heat buildup in the brakes.  This is a significant concern  for FCs but also
> cars.  It is especially the case with a fully loaded  FC.
>   
> On the subject of salt air and the effects on cars over time,  I completely
> agree.  To expand; salt air is bad for steel vehicles and  components but
> merely humid air is also bad.  Worst of all is an  environment where vehicles
> are driven in the winter in a state that uses road  salt.  I used to live
> in Minnesota where they use salt.  I remember  looking at an old El Camino
> and the seller used the fact that it was a North  Dakota vehicle as a selling
> point.  I asked why and he told me it was a  good thing because North Dakota
> used cinders instead of salt on the roads.   If you are in a dry hot state,
> you still need to check things out.  I am in  a warm state now but I own a
> Canadian Corsa.  I don't know how much of its  life was spent in Canada.
> Arizona is known to be quite dry and hot but  that vehicle may have spent its
> life in the Arizona mountains with a very  different environment.
>   
> Bill, thanks for pointing out the larger issue.  Perhaps  this will
> encourage a train of responses on brake issues.  Hopefully.
>   
> Like previous posts, I have included this response on VV as  well because
> this is an issue for both cars and FCs.
>   
> Doc
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>   
> In a message dated 5/17/2015 9:05:21 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> corvanatics-request at corvair.org writes:
>
> Message:  1
> Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 10:55:07 -0700
> From: Bill & Chris   Strickland <lechevrier at q.com>
> To: corvanatics at corvair.org
> Subject:  Re: [FC] Springs for "working" Rampside
> Message-ID:  <5557847B.6030406 at q.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;  charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> Yes, Doc, Newbies need to be  educated in the ways of their Corvair. But as
> such, you haven't even mentioned  the Big Safety Factor that could lead to
> physical injury. Brakes.
>
> A 1  ton load in an FC with tires so rated is a hazard with stock brakes.
> And  to further digress, our common usage load rating system (? & ? ton) is
> grossly unrealistic and was so in the sixties.One simply can not compare
> the  load carrying capacity of a Corvair truck to that of a 1 ton dual wheeled
>   truck of conventional manufacture, which in the sixties, also had woefully
>   inadequate brakes.
>
> But that was then, and this is now. Those 9,000  pound 1 ton diesel
> behemoths have rather spectacular brakes, and not just for  their size. Since this
> is no longer the sixties, things have changed,  especially highways and
> speed limits.  Very few Corvairs, and other cars  of the sixties that are being
> driven in regular usage still have their  original engines.  It's not a big
> deal to expect that any replacement  engine in an FC is an upgrade to the
> original, so most FC's already have that  upgraded power plant.
>
> What isn't a somewhat automatic upgrade is the  brakes, which weren't
> really good back when it was 55 mph speeds, let alone  what folks are driving on
> the freeways these days. And if you want to talk  loads", it gets much worse
> -- the engine will still work, but the brakes  won't!
>
> And, I think, Doc lives in Florida, a small peninsula surrounded  by salt
> water.  I would think that undercarriage inspection (and perhaps  testing and
> repair) would be common place for a Floridian FC, a unibody FC  without a
> heavy steel frame under it, and a good practice in general for any  old FC,
> and they are all "old".
>
> Doc seems obsessed with the engine, but  to put an FC in regular service,
> it seems to me there are any number of other  things to obsess over before
> the engine.  If the engine blows up, so what  -- quite likely there were no
> lives lost.  But brakes, frame, or other  structural  failure, even inadequate
> defrosters can lead to unexpected  consequences. Without power brakes and
> power steering, a Corvair is fairly  immune to drastic consequences related
> to engine failures (fire would be an  exception), whereas loss of vehicle
> control due to loosing a rear axle because  of bearing failure would be a far
> more serious and potentially dangerous  situation. If an engine blows, you
> call for a tow, and pay the man - happened  to one of the Ultra owners on our
> NW Econo-Run a couple years ago - stuff  happens, and like a good Boy Scout,
> "Be Prepared". No ambulance  needed.
>
> Regards,
>
> Bill  Strickland
>
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