Digest from 356talk@356registry.org - Sun, 12 Aug 2007 00:06:08 -0400 Begin message #8 From: "tim herman" <fourcam@carreramotorsport.com> To: "Jim Alton" <Jim.Alton@ieee.org>, "'Aldo Formiconi'" <a.formiconi@verizon.net> Subject: Re: [356Talk] Cab Hardtop Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 08:14:30 -0400 format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original The T-2 356A referred to here was never marketed or sold by Porsche as a Cabriolet. It was considered a seperate model and was marketed and sold as "The Hardtop." The Cabriolet name was used by numerous automobile manufacturers to denote a high-end open automobile with a plush, weathertight, padded folding top.Porsche followed suit with their high-end open model. Leather front seats were standard in the Cabriolet but not the Hardtop. Tim #2197 www.carreramotorsport.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Alton" <Jim.Alton@ieee.org> To: "'Aldo Formiconi'" <a.formiconi@verizon.net> Cc: <356talk@356registry.org> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 10:31 PM Subject: RE: [356Talk] Cab Hardtop >> There was a version of 356A Cabriolet which came with a removable hardtop >> but no soft top. I don't know how many folks bought a hardtop to go with >> their soft top cars but I can see how it could have appealed to many >> owners. >> Glaspar sold quite a few tops to Speedster owners. >> >> I have heard that the hardtop version usually had vinyl upholstery while >> the >> soft top normally had leather, but I can't confirm that. From time to >> time >> you see a T2 Cab for sale with only a removable hardtop. >> >> T2 Cabriolets have two turnbuckles in the back of the passenger >> compartment >> that have something to do with removing the hardtop. I have never tried >> to >> remove a Cabriolet top but I have seen a little Reutter pamphlet giving >> instructions on how to change tops. They must have come with the hardtop >> cabs but those pamphlets are very rare and expensive now. >> >> As you probably know, before the T2 the convertible top was not removable. >> I think the rear edge of the top was nailed to a wood strip affixed to the >> car. >> >> >> >> - - - - - - - - - - - - - >> James H. Alton II >> San Dimas, CA >> >> e-mail Jim.Alton@ieee.org >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Aldo Formiconi [mailto:a.formiconi@verizon.net] >> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 11:44 AM >> Cc: 356talk@356registry.org >> Subject: [356Talk] Cab Hardtop >> >> Hello list, >> >> Early in July I asked to the 356Talk information over the rear window >> glass >> for a cab hardtop. Three weeks ago I became owner of a 58 cab T2A which >> also came with an aluminum hardtop with no glass. >> The previous owner told me that he bought the cab together with the hard >> top >> which he never attempted to restore because the cab had a beautiful soft >> top. >> Questions: >> - Was it common in those times to buy cabs with both soft and hard tops? >> If >> the answer is yes, why would anybody buy a hard top as an alternative for >> a >> cab with a soft top? >> - The hard top that I have came without glass, window seals, hooks or >> liner. >> Where do I find a picture that shows me how the hardtop was originally >> made? >> - How does the hardtop attach to the car? Any manual or site where I can >> get >> this information? >> - Were the hard tops numbered like doors and hoods? If the answer is yes >> where should I look for this matching number? >> - Were all hardtops made of aluminum? Can anybody give me some background >> history on the hardtops for cabs? >> - And finally, how and where can I find the right windows for my aluminum >> hardtop? How can I identify which hardtop model do I have and which >> glass/seals/hooks I have to look for? >> >> Thank you. >> >> Aldo >> Reg.#19309 > > > Begin message #11 Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 06:48:55 -0700 To: "tim herman" <fourcam@carreramotorsport.com> From: Barry Lee Brisco <T2coupe@totheweb.com> Subject: Re: [356Talk] Cab Hardtop Hi Tim, I'm trying to understand what you're saying here, but I'm confused. On Charlie White's literature at: http://members.aol.com/DerWhite/Derwhites356LiteraturePage.htm I don't see any brochures on that page that refer to a "Hardtop" model. Do you have one? Have you seen factory literature or documentation that indicates there is a "Hardtop" model that comes standard with vinyl seats instead of leather? I'm sure Charlie would be interested in that. I always thought that customers could order a Cabriolet without the soft top and with the optional hardtop. But it was still considered a "Cabriolet" by Porsche. I realize that the soft top may not have been technically considered an "option", but nevertheless it was possible to order the car and specify that it have no soft top but have a hardtop instead. Note that on Charlie's factory accessories pages, he lists a "Hardtop Roof" as an accessorie, for example nunber 311 at: http://members.aol.com/Porchrat/356-AAccessoriesLATE.html Interestingly, he shows on that page "310. Soft Top for Cabriolet", so maybe it was a factory option that could be ordered separately. Just trying to understand the finer points of this issue. Best regards, Barry Brisco Begin message #14 Subject: RE: [356Talk] Cab Hardtop Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 11:12:40 -0300 From: "FR" <fr@frabbat.com> To: "Barry Lee Brisco" <T2coupe@totheweb.com>, "tim herman" <fourcam@carreramotorsport.com> Hi Barry, I have the original Porsche period 356 German price list (1.Aug.1958) and they were offered as follows: PREISLISTE Hardtop Hardtop 1600cc DM13.600.- Hardtop 1600cc Super DM14.700.- Hardtop 1600cc Carrera GS DM19.400.- Cabriolet-Verdeck (für alle 3 Typen) DM 890.- Cabriolet Cabriolet 1600cc DM13.900.- Cabriolet 1600cc Super DM15.000.- Cabriolet 1600cc Carrera GS DM19.700.- Hardtop-Aufsatz (für alle 3 Typen) DM 790.- Coupé Coupé 1600cc DM12.700.- Coupé 1600cc Super DM13.800.- Coupé 1600cc Carrera GS DM18.500.- Convertible Convertible 1600cc DM12.650.- Convertible 1600cc Super DM13.750.- I guess Tim is correct! Freddy Begin message #17 From: "tim herman" <fourcam@carreramotorsport.com> To: "FR" <fr@frabbat.com>, "Barry Lee Brisco" <T2coupe@totheweb.com> Subject: Re: [356Talk] Cab Hardtop Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 11:00:21 -0400 format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Ah, yes indeed! It is well documented that the Hardtop was a seperate model and was priced lower than the Cabriolet. Original owners I have talked to were attracted to the Hardtop for several reasons such as price point, visibility, roofline silhouette, weather protection and simply no interest in open air driving. The model (roofline silhouette-non removable) was continued into the B series cars as we know and now refer to as the Karmann Hardtop as Karmann got the build contract. Buyers were attracted to the cars for the same reasons above. Tim #2197 www.carreramotorsport.com Begin message #18 Subject: RE: [356Talk] Cab Hardtop Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 12:04:46 -0300 From: "FR" <fr@frabbat.com> To: "tim herman" <fourcam@carreramotorsport.com>, "Barry Lee Brisco" <T2coupe@totheweb.com> Recently I heard that a good way to identify a T2 Hardtop was the fact that the car was delivered without the fasteners to attach the boot from the cabriolet top. Something nice to note about these T2 hardtops is that they could be ordered with the Golde sunroof. Freddy Begin message #19 From: "tim herman" <fourcam@carreramotorsport.com> To: "FR" <fr@frabbat.com>, "Barry Lee Brisco" <T2coupe@totheweb.com> Subject: Re: [356Talk] Cab Hardtop Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 11:12:41 -0400 format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original ...and no Tenax fasteners on the body. Tim Begin message #21 Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 08:43:34 -0700 From: Alan <stable356@earthlink.net> To: Chris & Bill Strickland <lechevrier@earthlink.net>, 356talk@356registry.org Subject: Re: [356Talk] Cab Hardtop At the very rear of the hardtop are 2 links that have the same technology as the throttle ball snaps. The difference is that they use a smaller ball and socket. Between the sockets ends is a rod that has both left and right handed threads so it acts like a turnbuckle. They just snap into place. Alan Begin message #24 From: "Janet and David" <jedin@bright.net> To: <356talk@356registry.org> Subject: RE: [356Talk] Cab Hardtop Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 11:57:09 -0400 There are instructions in the factory workshop manual for the B/C cars for fitting both the hard top and soft top. Nothing in the "A" manual referencing the hard top installation just a chapter on care and how to lower and raise the soft top. I do believe that installation is the same for A, B and C cab tops so the B/C manual should be good for all 3. David. Begin message #27 From: Three56sc@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 12:33:17 EDT Subject: [356Talk] Cab Hardtop To: 356talk@356registry.org I have a 64 Cab that had a Hardtop when I bought it a few years ago and the COA lists the hardtop as an option. It's not clear to me if the hardtop came as the only top or in addition to the soft top. I just bought a complete softtop assembly for my car - wow was that expensive! The PO for some reason had stripped every nut, screw, garnish and piece of glass from my hardtop so I bought another one that was rusted out along the back edge - below the rear window (very common from people storing them in a less than dry spot propped up against a wall or fence) Being German, there's a data plate screwed on to the top with "Reutter" and a serial no. on it. Theoretically an owner could change the soft top and hardtop back and forth with the season, but it isn't an easy task (it takes two strong men and a small boy) and there's a very high likelyhood of chipping the paint on the car because both items are heavy and unwieldy. By the way, I'm still looking for some parts for my hardtop even though I'm not sure if I'll every use it again. If someone out there has any parts, I'm looking for the quarter window ganishes, the garnish piece that goes across the lower back inside, the aluminum strip that goes in the rubber seal between the top and the body at the rear edge, the turnbuckles and the clips that they attach to on the top, and probably a few other pieces that I'm not aware or thinking of. I have to admit that the car does look good - very sleek - with the top installed. It's just such a pain to remove it ... I'd like to see a definitve article in the Registry on the hardtop - maybe it's been done already in years passed. Greg Begin message #29 From: RStephen356@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 12:40:26 EDT Subject: Re: [356Talk] Cab Hardtop To: 356talk@356registry.org There are notations in the production books as to Cabrios with hardtops. Steve Heinrichs #16849 Begin message #32 From: DerWhite@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 13:23:24 EDT Subject: [356Talk] Cab Hardtop To: 356talk@356registry.org Tim is correct about there being a separte 356-A "model" called the "Hardtop". It first appears in the price lists around 1957. See the relevant price lists at: _http://members.aol.com/zenith356c/356PorschePriceLists.html_ (http://members.aol.com/zenith356c/356PorschePriceLists.html) The "Hardtop" was in fact less expensive than the Cabriolet, but not by much in some of the price lists. Not sure why that was so. Porsche also published little booklets entitled "Conversion Instructions" in 1958 and "Conversion Intructions - Cabriolet Top - Steel Roof, for the Cabriolet" in 1961, both of which show how to replace the soft convertible/cabriolet top with the steel hardtop. See examples of both of these at: _http://members.aol.com/zenith356c/ManualSupplements.html_ (http://members.aol.com/zenith356c/ManualSupplements.html) Later, in March 1960, one price list mentions 5 models: Hardtop, Hardtop/Cabriolet, Cabriolet, Coupe & Roadster. Here the "Hardtop" reference probably refers to the "fixed" hardtop "Notchback". All very confusing. In 1962, they appear to have dropped the reference to a "Hardtop" (as the Notchback is dropped from the lineup, although some were produced), and call it a "Cabriolet with Removable Hardtop". To the progression in the literature and price lists seems to be: Coupe, Cabriolet, Speedster. Coupe, Cabriolet, Speedster, Hardtop. Coupe, Cabriolet, Hardtop/Cabriolet, Roadster, Hardtop=Notchback. Coupe, Cabriolet, Cabriolet with Removable Hardtop. Coupe, Cabriolet. It is clear in the accessory booklets that Removable Hardtops could be ordered for Cabriolets as an accessory for 356 A's, B's, and C's. See: _http://members.aol.com/Porchrat/356PorscheAccessoriesMainPage.html_ (http://members.aol.com/Porchrat/356PorscheAccessoriesMainPage.html) Hope this lifts the fog a little. Regards, Charlie White Begin message #41 From: TWINGRIL62@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 17:12:37 EDT Subject: Re: [356Talk] Cab Hardtop To: T2coupe@totheweb.com Barry, If you had a softtop Cabriolet and ordered the hardtop option, you also received the longer inner side panels upholstered to match your interior. The softtop came with shorter interior side panels to allow the top to fold down. Jim Kellogg Begin message #43 From: "tom kayser" <tkayser@core.com> To: "FR" <fr@frabbat.com>, "tim herman" <fourcam@carreramotorsport.com>, "Barry Lee Brisco" <T2coupe@totheweb.com> Subject: Re: [356Talk] Cab Hardtop Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 17:23:34 -0400 format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original My `59 Cab came only with the hardtop, but it had the fasteners for the boot. Tom Kayser #16013 356restore Scottsdale, Arizona Begin message #45 From: "tom kayser" <tkayser@core.com> To: <TWINGRIL62@aol.com>, <T2coupe@totheweb.com> Subject: Re: [356Talk] Cab Hardtop Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 17:57:17 -0400 format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original I have a friend that has a `59 Cab that came with both the hardtop AND the soft top. He also has both sets of interior rear panels. I have heard, that if you bought a cab with a soft top you could also purchase a hardtop for an additional $500. Case in point - June 2003 Pano has a cover photo and story on a "barn find" time capsule original (documented) `59 cab that was found with the hardtop in place, but the soft top stored in the open position in the original crate for the hardtop. Some owners in the northern states ordered cabs with only the hardtop so they could have some semblance of warmth in the winter when these were the "family cars.) Tom Kayser #16013 `59 cab w/both tops (paid more for the soft top frame than I did for the car) Kalamazoo, Michigan Begin message #46 From: DerWhite@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 18:09:09 EDT Subject: Re: [356Talk] Cab Hardtop To: tkayser@core.com In a message dated 8/11/2007 3:00:07 PM US Mountain Standard Time, tkayser@core.com writes: I have heard, that if you bought a cab with a soft top you could also purchase a hardtop for an additional $500. For the late 356-A's you could order a steel hardtop as a factory accessory. See: _http://members.aol.com/Porchrat/356-AAccessoriesLATE.html_ (http://members.aol.com/Porchrat/356-AAccessoriesLATE.html) Scroll down to item #311. Source: Factory Accessory booklet. CW RE: [FC] Question on Rampside Part - rear end ratio

Chris & Bill Strickland lechevrier at earthlink.net
Sun Aug 26 13:59:18 EDT 2007

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The codes might be valuable IF you knew you had an original GM  diff, 
but a far surer way these days, when somebody has had ample time to 
change the gearset, is to count teeth or at least input vs output 
revolutions. There is also probably a tech page somewhere on doing this, 
too.

Bill Strickland

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