[SCG] [Corsabod] Factory Stock Corvair Entries and StockPreservation Awardhistory in CORSA Concours 1997-2009
Lynn David Palmer
lynndee at cwo.com
Fri Sep 4 10:47:34 EDT 2009
I want to commend Bill Hubbell for his comments. As one who has gone
through the journey of bringing a Corvair up to stock class, I feel
his comments are right on the mark.
I have not competed in CORSA Concours in quite a few years. My last
Senior qualified corvair in now residing in Europe. But I appreciate
the detail and effort that goes into competing in the stock class's.
I encourage continued discussion on this subject. Keep it alive.
Some great ideas have already been proposed by everyone to increase
partisipation. I feel Mark has some good ideas about class structure.
And Tim.... thank you for your input and leadership on this
discussion. I will continue to "lurk" with this discussion. I think
this is going in a positive direction.
Dave Palmer
CORSA Regional Events Sanctioning Committee
-------- Original Message --------
==> From: "Bill Hubbell" <whubbell at cox.net>
==> Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 19:57:45 -0400
Thanks, Tim.
I really don't know exactly what I have in mind for the Stock
Classes. All I can tell you is how I felt when I was going through
the process of restoring my car and moving up through the ranks from
Modified to Street Stock and then finally to Factory Stock
Restored. Mostly, I felt unappreciated and invisible until I
reached the final goal, and even then, because I was competing
against Rich, I never did win any kind of award (I bear the distinct
frustrating of being the only person to compete for and lose the FSR
Preservation award three times. Oh well...). The only recognition
I ever got for my efforts was to be allowed to compete in the
Factory Stock Restored class. Well, it had to be enough for me, but
I must admit to sometimes wishing for a little more encouragement
and recognition along the way, if only a few "atta-boys". Instead,
what I usually got was discouragement or frustration because I had
the wrong bolt, or the wrong color or sheen of paint. In other
words, it was more of a discouraging journey than an encouraging
one, and that is what I would like to change for the rest of the
group. Fortunately for me, I WAS competing against Rich Thompson,
in more ways than you know, and we encouraged each other. I was
certainly happy for his success, and his well deserved rewards, even
though I sometimes wished for a little recognition of my own.
OK, so I bared my soul - don't shoot me for it. My goal now is not
to seek recognition for myself but to give it to the others who are
out there fighting the good fight, so they will continue and not
give up because it is "too hard" or "not worth it", or because they
don't want to see their efforts dismissed because they missed
something.
So I guess what I would like to see is not just a single award given
to a Stock car that is the most beautiful (highest Concours score),
but rather a broader class of recognition for the hard work these
people are doing in their attempts to understand and
preserve/restore the Stock Corvair.
Think of it another way - looking at the list I sent out yesterday,
there are only EIGHTEEN (18) cars that CORSA has recognized as
Factory Stock (4 Original and 14 Restored) in the past THIRTEEN (13)
years. That is not very many cars. There are many more cars that
got into Street Stock that never went any farther. Did their owners
get discouraged and give up, or were they just content with the
effort? Could we have done anything to encourage them to continue?
Is that even a proper function of our club? Well, obviously I think
it is, but I am biased. Still, I have to wonder how many may have
given up the journey because they did not get those "atta-boys".
So at the very least, I think we need to give some sort of "class
recognition" to the folks who are crazy enough to run this gauntlet.
Perhaps we could learn a lesson from the folks at AACA who give a
nice trophy to you when you win your first event ("First Junior")
and then you get to compete for a different nice trophy as you move
into the Senior category. We could do something similar and
recognize every car that makes it into the Street Stock class for
the first time (thereby giving incentive to start down the Stock
path) and then again give recognition when they enter the Factory
Stock class for the first time. Sure, we could still recognize the
best cars in these classes as well, but in order to encourage Stock
preservation/restoration we should recognize all efforts in some
capacity.
As to the nature of the recognition, it could be as simple as a
certificate or a name on a list. The point is to recognize and
reward the effort. The alternative, which is what we have been
doing, is to continue to see fewer and fewer Stock Corvairs.
Finally, and this is over and above the issue of Stock Corvairs, I
believe if we wish to improve participation in the Concours in
general we should again take a cue from the AACA and offer something
like their "Preservation Award", which is actually a participation
award. Once a car has obtained Senior Status we should offer an
award that recognizes repeat participation. It won't solve all
problems - after all, Concours is a lot of work and most of us get
tired of the prep work after awhile, but maybe it would encourage
more repeat business.
Just my 2 cents worth....
Bill Hubbell
-----Original Message----- From: tim mahler
[mailto:flat6vair at comcast.net] Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009
6:59 PM To: whubbell at umich.edu; Larry Claypool; Mark Corbin; Duanne
Luckow; CORSA/CPF BoD; Stock Corvair Group Subject: Re: [Corsabod]
[SCG] Factory Stock Corvair Entries and StockPreservation
Awardhistory in CORSA Concours 1997-2009
Thank Bill for assisting. I know how important this issue is to you.
Everyone, Please note that board just approved at the Annual board
meeting changes to the Concours rules that include a REDUCTION
(empahasis) in the number of classes. Not to the level described in
these emails, but a reduction none-the-less.
This included the elimination of Speciality class which my beloved
Fitch Sprints were classified. (i'm ok with that, a Fitch Sprint
is neither Factory nor street stock nor should it be)
Factory Stock (sub divided to Original and Restored) Street Stock
Improved (includes Sprints and Yenkos and Engineering (Cords, V8s,
dune buggies and Ultravans
So some effort HAS already been made to place more emphasis on
STOCK classifications.
I do think Bill's thought on Street stock recognition has merit. It
does not need to be a separate award. It could be a Best Street
Stock decal applied to the trophy the participant is receiving.
Bob Dunahugh is proposing something similar for autocross.
tim mahler
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Hubbell"
<whubbell at umich.edu> To: "Larry Claypool"
<vairshop at sbcglobal.net>; "Mark Corbin"
<airvair at earthlink.net>; "William J Hubbell"
<whubbell at umich.edu>; "Duanne Luckow" <daluckow at aol.com>; "CORSA/CPF
BoD" <corsabod at corvair.org>; "Stock Corvair Group" <scg-
list at tiger.skiblack.com> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Corsabod] [SCG] Factory Stock Corvair Entries and
StockPreservation Awardhistory in CORSA Concours 1997-2009
>I do note that in any given year there are always a lot more cars
in the >Street Stock classes than in Factory Stock, so there is
apparently a larger
>pool of people at least somewhat interested in Stock and I would
like to >offer them some encouragement to continue. One thought I
have had is that >we might offer some sort of recognition or
consideration to those folks who
>get into the "Street Stock" class to encourage them to continue to
pursue >restoration into the Factory Stock" classes. I am not
certain what form >such consideration might take, but I think it is
an idea worth exploring. > > Bill Hubbell > -----Original Message----
- > From: "The Vair Shop" <vairshop at sbcglobal.net> > > Date: Thu, 3
Sep 2009 10:17:56 > To: <airvair at earthlink.net>;
<whubbell at umich.edu>; Duanne > Luckow<daluckow at aol.com>; CORSA/CPF
BoD<corsabod at corvair.org>; Stock > Corvair Group<scg-
list at tiger.skiblack.com> > Subject: Re: [SCG] Factory Stock Corvair
Entries and Stock Preservation > Awardhistory in CORSA Concours 1997-
2009 > > > hi all > comments in text below > > > > >> All, >> >> My
first point that I'd like to make it this. I've been concerned for
>> some >> time about this situation, and of a larger associated
issue of >> classification. Part of the reason, I believe, for a low
turnout in stock >> cars in concours is the fact that classes have
been made rather >> meaningless, with the now-current awards system
of "gold/silver/bronze" >> rather than "first/second/third" as was
the original system. There is now >> little incentive to pursue
a "stock" classification, other than for the >> somewhat
obscure "Preservation" award. I say "obscure" because there is >>
not >> enough prestige attached to this award to highlight it
sufficiently. > > there is also a number of people who want to
restore a car to stock,
> regardless of where it places or scores- they just want it 'stock'
> >> >> As I see it, our choices are to either return to the
original awards >> system, or modify the "classification" process to
reflect the current >> system. Since the majority seem to prefer the
current system, the latter >> should be pursued. > > i agree we
should not go backwards to a X in class system > > It's also
possible that eliminating most classes would >> re-emphasize the
remaining "stock" classes. > > agreed > >> >> I have previously sent
to Duanne Luckow a detailed proposal to eliminate >> all classes
except the one(s) that would be affected by the Preservation >>
Award. After all, classification other than for these elegible
classes >> for >> that award is really a study in futility, and a
waste of time and effort. >> It's a usless effort that we could just
as well do without, as long as we >> have the present awards system.
We could then begin a program to >> emphasize >> stock cars. > > the
thought of 2 classes-stock and then all others (plus engineering >
class, > because those vehicles can't be readily equated to full
corvair bodied and > powered cars) has been brought up before, and
has some merit. > > >> >> A second point I would like to make is
that while I would be the last to >> want modified cars to be
allowed into stock classes, I also feel that we >> are possibly
being a bit too strict with potential stock class cars. > > really?
in comparison to NCRS,porsche, and some other clubs, we are really >
loose. > in classification, we don't do numbers matching checks
other than obvious > stuff like engine code and *some* fisher body
accessory codes. we don't > look > at glass dates, diff or trans
numbers. we allow radial tires and > replacement batteries. we have
been allowing hardware that looks generally > right but is
reproduction stuff without the little factory markings. we > have >
not been very strick about powder coating. i could go on. > The >>
original rules that I wrote were intended to disqualify cars that
didn't >> "appear just as they could have left the factory" due to
intentional and >> noticable modifications, but I never intended for
the rules to be so >> strict >> as to all but eliminate the stock
classes due to lack of "perfect" >> participants. > > see above. if
we had "perfect" standards, the list would be considerbly > shorter.
> > If you note the word "appear" in my quote above - the intent >>
was to only comply with a cosmetic appearance, rather than
a "perfect" >> representation of "pure stock". > > right. that's why
we have been allowing powder coat and clear coat/base > coat >
finishes, and coating of parts normally left bare as long as it
*looks* > stock. if the end product does not look stock, it doesn't
make the cut. > > > While the latter is a great ideal to shoot >>
for, the original intent was to allow the points system to penalize
>> infractions to the "perfect" state on a stock class car that was
less >> than >> "perfectly" factory stock. >> >> The question we
should be asking ourselves is whether we are being too >> critical,
and should we "cut some slack" with those who are not "letter >>
perfect"? > > whether or not we are too critical depends on whose
standard you are > judging > corsa by. are we too critical for some
other single marque clubs? my > opinion > is definitly not. too
crital for aaca? i think we're on the money for > them. > too crital
for a local town car show? yes. > so the qustion then goes to what
standard do you want be? the best? middle > of the road? or entry
level ? > > I think that we could find some way to preserve our high
>> standards, yet encourage entrants rather than frustrate them.
Perhaps a >> points penalization system, rather than an outright
disqualification? > > it's not a disqualification from factory
stock, they weren't in it to > begin > with. people who do not make
factory stock did not do enough homework. > it is not easy to
restore a car a car to factory stock. it costs way more > money, and
takes much more time to do so, which is a big factor. and it > takes
alot of reasearch, not just opening up clark's catalogue. > and it's
much harder on a 'common' car like a corvair where many of the >
these cars were simply transportation back when they new, and many >
modifications were made in the course of regular service and
repairs. and > *especially*on a corvair because most service
facilities did not like or > undestand these cars. > >> Something to
think about... > > i agree > > >> >> -Mark Corbin >> > lc > >> >>>
[Original Message] >>> From: Bill Hubbell <whubbell at cox.net> >>> To:
Larry Claypool <vairshop at sbcglobal.net>; Duanne Luckow >>
<daluckow at aol.com>; CORSA/CPF BoD <corsabod at corvair.org>; Stock
Corvair >> Group <scg-list at tiger.skiblack.com> >>> Date: 9/3/2009
12:05:53 AM >>> Subject: [SCG] Factory Stock Corvair Entries and
Stock Preservation >> Awardhistory in CORSA Concours 1997-2009 >>>
>>> To: >>> >>> Larry Claypool, CORSA Concours Classification
Chairman >>> >>> Duanne Luckow, CORSA Concours Chair >>> >>> CORSA
Board of Directors >>> >>> Stock Corvair Group >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>
>>> Gentleman, >>> >>> >>> >>> Attached is a summary of all cars
entered into the two CORSA Concours >>> Factory Stock classes since
the development of the Stock Preservation >> Award >>> in 1997.
Although we have had some great success with recent Factory >> Stock
>>> Restored entries also winning the Mitchell Award, the fact
remains that >>> participation in the Factory Stock Classes remains
very low. Please >> review >>> this information with an eye towards
answering the question of what, if >>> anything, we can do to
encourage and improve Factory Stock participation >> at >>> the
Concours level. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you >>> >>> >>> >>> Bill
Hubbell >>> >>> President, Stock Corvair Group >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>
>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Corsabod
mailing list > Corsabod at tiger.skiblack.com >
http://www.vv.corvair.org/mailman/listinfo/corsabod
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