[SCG] [Corsabod] Factory Stock Corvair EntriesandStockPreservation Awardhistory in CORSA Concours 1997-2009

[moreheadscott at yahoo.com]

These are pertinent and great ideas.  

As Tim has suggested - we need to at least give the current changes the opportunity to be employed and reviewed. 

In the interim - this should give others the time necessary to submit the changes and reasons for those changes for the board to review over the next year. 

Thanks for all the great comments. 
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: "airvair at earthlink.net" <airvair at earthlink.net>

Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 09:47:07 
To: <whubbell at umich.edu>; Larry Claypool<vairshop at sbcglobal.net>; Duanne Luckow<daluckow at aol.com>; CORSA/CPF BoD<corsabod at corvair.org>; Stock Corvair Group<scg-list at tiger.skiblack.com>
Subject: Re: [Corsabod] [SCG] Factory Stock Corvair Entries
	andStockPreservation Awardhistory in CORSA Concours 1997-2009


On that vein, maybe we could have some "Most Improved" awards. Such awards
would recognize cars that improved their year-to-year concours score, or
made the most improvements towards qualifying for "stock" classification.
Something to think about.

-Mark


> [Original Message]
> From: Bill Hubbell <whubbell at cox.net>
> To: Larry Claypool <vairshop at sbcglobal.net>; Duanne Luckow
<daluckow at aol.com>; CORSA/CPF BoD <corsabod at corvair.org>; Stock Corvair
Group <scg-list at tiger.skiblack.com>
> Date: 9/3/2009 7:57:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [SCG] [Corsabod] Factory Stock Corvair Entries
andStockPreservation Awardhistory in CORSA Concours 1997-2009
>
> Thanks, Tim.
>
> I really don't know exactly what I have in mind for the Stock Classes. 
All
> I can tell you is how I felt when I was going through the process of
> restoring my car and moving up through the ranks from Modified to Street
> Stock and then finally to Factory Stock Restored.  Mostly, I felt
> unappreciated and invisible until I reached the final goal, and even then,
> because I was competing against Rich, I never did win any kind of award (I
> bear the distinct frustrating of being the only person to compete for and
> lose the FSR Preservation award three times.  Oh well...).  The only
> recognition I ever got for my efforts was to be allowed to compete in the
> Factory Stock Restored class.  Well, it had to be enough for me, but I
must
> admit to sometimes wishing for a little more encouragement and recognition
> along the way, if only a few "atta-boys".  Instead, what I usually got was
> discouragement or frustration because I had the wrong bolt, or the wrong
> color or sheen of paint.  In other words, it was more of a discouraging
> journey than an encouraging one, and that is what I would like to change
for
> the rest of the group.  Fortunately for me, I WAS competing against Rich
> Thompson, in more ways than you know, and we encouraged each other.  I was
> certainly happy for his success, and his well deserved rewards, even
though
> I sometimes wished for a little recognition of my own.  
>
> OK, so I bared my soul - don't shoot me for it.  My goal now is not to
seek
> recognition for myself but to give it to the others who are out there
> fighting the good fight, so they will continue and not give up because it
is
> "too hard" or "not worth it", or because they don't want to see their
> efforts dismissed because they missed something.
>
> So I guess what I would like to see is not just a single award given to a
> Stock car that is the most beautiful (highest Concours score), but rather
a
> broader class of recognition for the hard work these people are doing in
> their attempts to understand and preserve/restore the Stock Corvair.
>
> Think of it another way - looking at the list I sent out yesterday, there
> are only EIGHTEEN (18) cars that CORSA has recognized as Factory Stock (4
> Original and 14 Restored) in the past THIRTEEN (13) years.  That is not
very
> many cars.  There are many more cars that got into Street Stock that never
> went any farther.  Did their owners get discouraged and give up, or were
> they just content with the effort?  Could we have done anything to
encourage
> them to continue?  Is that even a proper function of our club?  Well,
> obviously I think it is, but I am biased.  Still, I have to wonder how
many
> may have given up the journey because they did not get those "atta-boys".
>
> So at the very least, I think we need to give some sort of "class
> recognition" to the folks who are crazy enough to run this gauntlet.
> Perhaps we could learn a lesson from the folks at AACA who give a nice
> trophy to you when you win your first event ("First Junior") and then you
> get to compete for a different nice trophy as you move into the Senior
> category.  We could do something similar and recognize every car that
makes
> it into the Street Stock class for the first time (thereby giving
incentive
> to start down the Stock path) and then again give recognition when they
> enter the Factory Stock class for the first time.  Sure, we could still
> recognize the best cars in these classes as well, but in order to
encourage
> Stock preservation/restoration we should recognize all efforts in some
> capacity.
>
> As to the nature of the recognition, it could be as simple as a
certificate
> or a name on a list.  The point is to recognize and reward the effort. 
The
> alternative, which is what we have been doing, is to continue to see fewer
> and fewer Stock Corvairs.
>
> Finally, and this is over and above the issue of Stock Corvairs, I believe
> if we wish to improve participation in the Concours in general we should
> again take a cue from the AACA and offer something like their
"Preservation
> Award", which is actually a participation award.  Once a car has obtained
> Senior Status we should offer an award that recognizes repeat
participation.
> It won't solve all problems - after all, Concours is a lot of work and
most
> of us get tired of the prep work after awhile, but maybe it would
encourage
> more repeat business.
>
> Just my 2 cents worth....
>
> Bill Hubbell
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tim mahler [mailto:flat6vair at comcast.net] 
> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 6:59 PM
> To: whubbell at umich.edu; Larry Claypool; Mark Corbin; Duanne Luckow;
> CORSA/CPF BoD; Stock Corvair Group
> Subject: Re: [Corsabod] [SCG] Factory Stock Corvair Entries and
> StockPreservation Awardhistory in CORSA Concours 1997-2009
>
> Thank Bill for assisting.  I know how important this issue is to you.
>
> Everyone, Please note that board just approved at the Annual board
meeting 
> changes to the Concours rules that include a REDUCTION (empahasis) in the 
> number of classes.  Not to the level described in these emails,  but a 
> reduction none-the-less.
>
> This included the elimination of Speciality class which my beloved Fitch 
> Sprints were classified.  (i'm ok with that,  a Fitch Sprint is neither 
> Factory nor street stock nor should it be)
>
> Factory Stock  (sub divided to Original and Restored)
> Street Stock
> Improved (includes Sprints and Yenkos
> and
> Engineering (Cords, V8s, dune buggies and Ultravans
>
>
> So some effort HAS already been made to place more emphasis on STOCK 
> classifications.
>
> I do think Bill's thought on Street stock recognition has merit.  It does 
> not need to be a separate award. It could be a Best Street Stock  decal 
> applied to the trophy the participant is receiving.  Bob Dunahugh is 
> proposing something similar for autocross.
>
> tim mahler
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Bill Hubbell" <whubbell at umich.edu>
> To: "Larry Claypool" <vairshop at sbcglobal.net>; "Mark Corbin" 
> <airvair at earthlink.net>; "William J Hubbell" <whubbell at umich.edu>;
"Duanne 
> Luckow" <daluckow at aol.com>; "CORSA/CPF BoD" <corsabod at corvair.org>;
"Stock 
> Corvair Group" <scg-list at tiger.skiblack.com>
> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 11:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [Corsabod] [SCG] Factory Stock Corvair Entries and 
> StockPreservation Awardhistory in CORSA Concours 1997-2009
>
>
> >I do note that in any given year there are always a lot more cars in the 
> >Street Stock classes than in Factory Stock, so there is apparently a
larger
>
> >pool of people at least somewhat interested in Stock and I would like to 
> >offer them some encouragement to continue.  One thought I have had is
that 
> >we might offer some sort of recognition or consideration to those folks
who
>
> >get into the "Street Stock" class to encourage them to continue to
pursue 
> >restoration into the Factory Stock" classes. I am not certain what form 
> >such consideration might take, but I think it is an idea worth exploring.
> >
> > Bill Hubbell
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "The Vair Shop" <vairshop at sbcglobal.net>
> >
> > Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 10:17:56
> > To: <airvair at earthlink.net>; <whubbell at umich.edu>; Duanne 
> > Luckow<daluckow at aol.com>; CORSA/CPF BoD<corsabod at corvair.org>; Stock 
> > Corvair Group<scg-list at tiger.skiblack.com>
> > Subject: Re: [SCG] Factory Stock Corvair Entries and Stock Preservation 
> > Awardhistory in CORSA Concours 1997-2009
> >
> >
> > hi all
> > comments in text below
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> All,
> >>
> >> My first point that I'd like to make it this. I've been concerned for 
> >> some
> >> time about this situation, and of a larger associated issue of
> >> classification. Part of the reason, I believe, for a low turnout in
stock
> >> cars in concours is the fact that classes have been made rather
> >> meaningless, with the now-current awards system of "gold/silver/bronze"
> >> rather than "first/second/third" as was the original system. There is
now
> >> little incentive to pursue a "stock" classification, other than for the
> >> somewhat obscure "Preservation" award. I say "obscure" because there is
> >> not
> >> enough prestige attached to this award to highlight it sufficiently.
> >
> > there is also a number of people who want to restore a car to stock,
> > regardless of where it places or scores- they just want it 'stock'
> >
> >>
> >> As I see it, our choices are to either return to the original awards
> >> system, or modify the "classification" process to reflect the current
> >> system. Since the majority seem to prefer the current system, the
latter
> >> should be pursued.
> >
> > i agree we should not go backwards to a X in class system
> >
> > It's also possible that eliminating most classes would
> >> re-emphasize the remaining "stock" classes.
> >
> > agreed
> >
> >>
> >> I have previously sent to Duanne Luckow a detailed proposal to
eliminate
> >> all classes except the one(s) that would be affected by the
Preservation
> >> Award. After all, classification other than for these elegible classes 
> >> for
> >> that award is really a study in futility, and a waste of time and
effort.
> >> It's a usless effort that we could just as well do without, as long as
we
> >> have the present awards system. We could then begin a program to 
> >> emphasize
> >> stock cars.
> >
> > the thought of 2 classes-stock and then all others (plus engineering 
> > class,
> > because those vehicles can't be readily equated to full corvair bodied
and
> > powered cars) has been brought up before, and has some merit.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> A second point I would like to make is that while I would be the last
to
> >> want modified cars to be allowed into stock classes, I also feel that
we
> >> are possibly being a bit too strict with potential stock class cars.
> >
> > really? in comparison to NCRS,porsche, and some other clubs, we are
really
> > loose.
> > in classification, we don't do numbers matching checks other than
obvious
> > stuff like engine code and *some* fisher body accessory codes. we don't 
> > look
> > at glass dates,  diff or trans numbers. we allow radial tires and
> > replacement batteries. we have been allowing hardware that looks
generally
> > right but is reproduction stuff without the little factory markings. we 
> > have
> > not been very strick about powder coating. i could go on.
> > The
> >> original rules that I wrote were intended to disqualify cars that
didn't
> >> "appear just as they could have left the factory" due to intentional
and
> >> noticable modifications, but I never intended for the rules to be so
> >> strict
> >> as to all but eliminate the stock classes due to lack of "perfect"
> >> participants.
> >
> > see above. if we had "perfect" standards, the list would be considerbly
> > shorter.
> >
> > If you note the word "appear" in my quote above - the intent
> >> was to only comply with a cosmetic appearance, rather than a "perfect"
> >> representation of "pure stock".
> >
> > right. that's why we have been allowing powder coat and clear coat/base 
> > coat
> > finishes, and coating of parts normally left bare as long as it *looks*
> > stock. if the end product does not look stock, it doesn't make the cut.
> >
> >
> > While the latter is a great ideal to shoot
> >> for, the original intent was to allow the points system to penalize
> >> infractions to the "perfect" state on a stock class car that was less 
> >> than
> >> "perfectly" factory stock.
> >>
> >> The question we should be asking ourselves is whether we are being too
> >> critical, and should we "cut some slack" with those who are not "letter
> >> perfect"?
> >
> > whether or not we are too critical depends on whose standard you are 
> > judging
> > corsa by. are we too critical for some other single marque clubs? my 
> > opinion
> > is definitly not. too crital for aaca? i think we're on the money for 
> > them.
> > too crital for a local town car show? yes.
> > so the qustion then goes to what standard do you want be? the best?
middle
> > of the road? or entry level ?
> >
> > I think that we could find some way to preserve our high
> >> standards, yet encourage entrants rather than frustrate them. Perhaps a
> >> points penalization system, rather than an outright disqualification?
> >
> > it's not a disqualification from factory stock, they weren't in it to 
> > begin
> > with.  people who do not make factory stock did not do enough homework.
> > it is not easy to restore a car a car to factory stock. it costs way
more
> > money, and takes much more time to do so, which is a big factor. and it
> > takes alot of reasearch, not just opening up clark's catalogue.
> > and it's much harder on a 'common' car like a corvair where many of the
> > these cars were simply transportation back when they new, and many
> > modifications were made in the course of regular service and repairs. 
and
> > *especially*on a corvair because most service facilities did not like or
> > undestand these cars.
> >
> >> Something to think about...
> >
> > i agree
> >
> >
> >>
> >> -Mark Corbin
> >>
> > lc
> >
> >>
> >>> [Original Message]
> >>> From: Bill Hubbell <whubbell at cox.net>
> >>> To: Larry Claypool <vairshop at sbcglobal.net>; Duanne Luckow
> >> <daluckow at aol.com>; CORSA/CPF BoD <corsabod at corvair.org>; Stock Corvair
> >> Group <scg-list at tiger.skiblack.com>
> >>> Date: 9/3/2009 12:05:53 AM
> >>> Subject: [SCG] Factory Stock Corvair Entries and Stock Preservation
> >> Awardhistory in CORSA Concours 1997-2009
> >>>
> >>> To:
> >>>
> >>> Larry Claypool, CORSA Concours Classification Chairman
> >>>
> >>> Duanne Luckow, CORSA Concours Chair
> >>>
> >>> CORSA Board of Directors
> >>>
> >>> Stock Corvair Group
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Gentleman,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Attached is a summary of all cars entered into the two CORSA Concours
> >>> Factory Stock classes since the development of the Stock Preservation
> >> Award
> >>> in 1997.  Although we have had some great success with recent Factory
> >> Stock
> >>> Restored entries also winning the Mitchell Award, the fact remains
that
> >>> participation in the Factory Stock Classes remains very low.  Please
> >> review
> >>> this information with an eye towards answering the question of what,
if
> >>> anything, we can do to encourage and improve Factory Stock
participation
> >> at
> >>> the Concours level.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Thank you
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Bill Hubbell
> >>>
> >>> President, Stock Corvair Group
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Corsabod mailing list
> > Corsabod at tiger.skiblack.com
> > http://www.vv.corvair.org/mailman/listinfo/corsabod
>
>
>
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