[SCG] [Corsabod] Factory Stock Corvair Entries andStockPreservation Awardhistory in CORSA Concours 1997-2009

Fri Sep 4 09:47:07 EDT 2009

On that vein, maybe we could have some "Most Improved" awards. Such awards
would recognize cars that improved their year-to-year concours score, or
made the most improvements towards qualifying for "stock" classification.
Something to think about.

-Mark

> [Original Message]
> From: Bill Hubbell <whubbell at cox.net>
> To: Larry Claypool <vairshop at sbcglobal.net>; Duanne Luckow
<daluckow at aol.com>; CORSA/CPF BoD <corsabod at corvair.org>; Stock Corvair
Group <scg-list at tiger.skiblack.com>
> Date: 9/3/2009 7:57:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [SCG] [Corsabod] Factory Stock Corvair Entries
andStockPreservation Awardhistory in CORSA Concours 1997-2009
>
> Thanks, Tim.
>
> I really don't know exactly what I have in mind for the Stock Classes. 
All
> I can tell you is how I felt when I was going through the process of
> restoring my car and moving up through the ranks from Modified to Street
> Stock and then finally to Factory Stock Restored.  Mostly, I felt
> unappreciated and invisible until I reached the final goal, and even then,
> because I was competing against Rich, I never did win any kind of award (I
> bear the distinct frustrating of being the only person to compete for and
> lose the FSR Preservation award three times.  Oh well...).  The only
> recognition I ever got for my efforts was to be allowed to compete in the
> Factory Stock Restored class.  Well, it had to be enough for me, but I
must
> admit to sometimes wishing for a little more encouragement and recognition
> along the way, if only a few "atta-boys".  Instead, what I usually got was
> discouragement or frustration because I had the wrong bolt, or the wrong
> color or sheen of paint.  In other words, it was more of a discouraging
> journey than an encouraging one, and that is what I would like to change
for
> the rest of the group.  Fortunately for me, I WAS competing against Rich
> Thompson, in more ways than you know, and we encouraged each other.  I was
> certainly happy for his success, and his well deserved rewards, even
though
> I sometimes wished for a little recognition of my own.  
>
> OK, so I bared my soul - don't shoot me for it.  My goal now is not to
seek
> recognition for myself but to give it to the others who are out there
> fighting the good fight, so they will continue and not give up because it
is
> "too hard" or "not worth it", or because they don't want to see their
> efforts dismissed because they missed something.
>
> So I guess what I would like to see is not just a single award given to a
> Stock car that is the most beautiful (highest Concours score), but rather
a
> broader class of recognition for the hard work these people are doing in
> their attempts to understand and preserve/restore the Stock Corvair.
>
> Think of it another way - looking at the list I sent out yesterday, there
> are only EIGHTEEN (18) cars that CORSA has recognized as Factory Stock (4
> Original and 14 Restored) in the past THIRTEEN (13) years.  That is not
very
> many cars.  There are many more cars that got into Street Stock that never
> went any farther.  Did their owners get discouraged and give up, or were
> they just content with the effort?  Could we have done anything to
encourage
> them to continue?  Is that even a proper function of our club?  Well,
> obviously I think it is, but I am biased.  Still, I have to wonder how
many
> may have given up the journey because they did not get those "atta-boys".
>
> So at the very least, I think we need to give some sort of "class
> recognition" to the folks who are crazy enough to run this gauntlet.
> Perhaps we could learn a lesson from the folks at AACA who give a nice
> trophy to you when you win your first event ("First Junior") and then you
> get to compete for a different nice trophy as you move into the Senior
> category.  We could do something similar and recognize every car that
makes
> it into the Street Stock class for the first time (thereby giving
incentive
> to start down the Stock path) and then again give recognition when they
> enter the Factory Stock class for the first time.  Sure, we could still
> recognize the best cars in these classes as well, but in order to
encourage
> Stock preservation/restoration we should recognize all efforts in some
> capacity.
>
> As to the nature of the recognition, it could be as simple as a
certificate
> or a name on a list.  The point is to recognize and reward the effort. 
The
> alternative, which is what we have been doing, is to continue to see fewer
> and fewer Stock Corvairs.
>
> Finally, and this is over and above the issue of Stock Corvairs, I believe
> if we wish to improve participation in the Concours in general we should
> again take a cue from the AACA and offer something like their
"Preservation
> Award", which is actually a participation award.  Once a car has obtained
> Senior Status we should offer an award that recognizes repeat
participation.
> It won't solve all problems - after all, Concours is a lot of work and
most
> of us get tired of the prep work after awhile, but maybe it would
encourage
> more repeat business.
>
> Just my 2 cents worth....
>
> Bill Hubbell
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tim mahler [mailto:flat6vair at comcast.net] 
> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 6:59 PM
> To: whubbell at umich.edu; Larry Claypool; Mark Corbin; Duanne Luckow;
> CORSA/CPF BoD; Stock Corvair Group
> Subject: Re: [Corsabod] [SCG] Factory Stock Corvair Entries and
> StockPreservation Awardhistory in CORSA Concours 1997-2009
>
> Thank Bill for assisting.  I know how important this issue is to you.
>
> Everyone, Please note that board just approved at the Annual board
meeting 
> changes to the Concours rules that include a REDUCTION (empahasis) in the 
> number of classes.  Not to the level described in these emails,  but a 
> reduction none-the-less.
>
> This included the elimination of Speciality class which my beloved Fitch 
> Sprints were classified.  (i'm ok with that,  a Fitch Sprint is neither 
> Factory nor street stock nor should it be)
>
> Factory Stock  (sub divided to Original and Restored)
> Street Stock
> Improved (includes Sprints and Yenkos
> and
> Engineering (Cords, V8s, dune buggies and Ultravans
>
>
> So some effort HAS already been made to place more emphasis on STOCK 
> classifications.
>
> I do think Bill's thought on Street stock recognition has merit.  It does 
> not need to be a separate award. It could be a Best Street Stock  decal 
> applied to the trophy the participant is receiving.  Bob Dunahugh is 
> proposing something similar for autocross.
>
> tim mahler
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Bill Hubbell" <whubbell at umich.edu>
> To: "Larry Claypool" <vairshop at sbcglobal.net>; "Mark Corbin" 
> <airvair at earthlink.net>; "William J Hubbell" <whubbell at umich.edu>;
"Duanne 
> Luckow" <daluckow at aol.com>; "CORSA/CPF BoD" <corsabod at corvair.org>;
"Stock 
> Corvair Group" <scg-list at tiger.skiblack.com>
> Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 11:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [Corsabod] [SCG] Factory Stock Corvair Entries and 
> StockPreservation Awardhistory in CORSA Concours 1997-2009
>
>
> >I do note that in any given year there are always a lot more cars in the 
> >Street Stock classes than in Factory Stock, so there is apparently a
larger
>
> >pool of people at least somewhat interested in Stock and I would like to 
> >offer them some encouragement to continue.  One thought I have had is
that 
> >we might offer some sort of recognition or consideration to those folks
who
>
> >get into the "Street Stock" class to encourage them to continue to
pursue 
> >restoration into the Factory Stock" classes. I am not certain what form 
> >such consideration might take, but I think it is an idea worth exploring.
> >
> > Bill Hubbell
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "The Vair Shop" <vairshop at sbcglobal.net>
> >
> > Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 10:17:56
> > To: <airvair at earthlink.net>; <whubbell at umich.edu>; Duanne 
> > Luckow<daluckow at aol.com>; CORSA/CPF BoD<corsabod at corvair.org>; Stock 
> > Corvair Group<scg-list at tiger.skiblack.com>
> > Subject: Re: [SCG] Factory Stock Corvair Entries and Stock Preservation 
> > Awardhistory in CORSA Concours 1997-2009
> >
> >
> > hi all
> > comments in text below
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> All,
> >>
> >> My first point that I'd like to make it this. I've been concerned for 
> >> some
> >> time about this situation, and of a larger associated issue of
> >> classification. Part of the reason, I believe, for a low turnout in
stock
> >> cars in concours is the fact that classes have been made rather
> >> meaningless, with the now-current awards system of "gold/silver/bronze"
> >> rather than "first/second/third" as was the original system. There is
now
> >> little incentive to pursue a "stock" classification, other than for the
> >> somewhat obscure "Preservation" award. I say "obscure" because there is
> >> not
> >> enough prestige attached to this award to highlight it sufficiently.
> >
> > there is also a number of people who want to restore a car to stock,
> > regardless of where it places or scores- they just want it 'stock'
> >
> >>
> >> As I see it, our choices are to either return to the original awards
> >> system, or modify the "classification" process to reflect the current
> >> system. Since the majority seem to prefer the current system, the
latter
> >> should be pursued.
> >
> > i agree we should not go backwards to a X in class system
> >
> > It's also possible that eliminating most classes would
> >> re-emphasize the remaining "stock" classes.
> >
> > agreed
> >
> >>
> >> I have previously sent to Duanne Luckow a detailed proposal to
eliminate
> >> all classes except the one(s) that would be affected by the
Preservation
> >> Award. After all, classification other than for these elegible classes 
> >> for
> >> that award is really a study in futility, and a waste of time and
effort.
> >> It's a usless effort that we could just as well do without, as long as
we
> >> have the present awards system. We could then begin a program to 
> >> emphasize
> >> stock cars.
> >
> > the thought of 2 classes-stock and then all others (plus engineering 
> > class,
> > because those vehicles can't be readily equated to full corvair bodied
and
> > powered cars) has been brought up before, and has some merit.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> A second point I would like to make is that while I would be the last
to
> >> want modified cars to be allowed into stock classes, I also feel that
we
> >> are possibly being a bit too strict with potential stock class cars.
> >
> > really? in comparison to NCRS,porsche, and some other clubs, we are
really
> > loose.
> > in classification, we don't do numbers matching checks other than
obvious
> > stuff like engine code and *some* fisher body accessory codes. we don't 
> > look
> > at glass dates,  diff or trans numbers. we allow radial tires and
> > replacement batteries. we have been allowing hardware that looks
generally
> > right but is reproduction stuff without the little factory markings. we 
> > have
> > not been very strick about powder coating. i could go on.
> > The
> >> original rules that I wrote were intended to disqualify cars that
didn't
> >> "appear just as they could have left the factory" due to intentional
and
> >> noticable modifications, but I never intended for the rules to be so
> >> strict
> >> as to all but eliminate the stock classes due to lack of "perfect"
> >> participants.
> >
> > see above. if we had "perfect" standards, the list would be considerbly
> > shorter.
> >
> > If you note the word "appear" in my quote above - the intent
> >> was to only comply with a cosmetic appearance, rather than a "perfect"
> >> representation of "pure stock".
> >
> > right. that's why we have been allowing powder coat and clear coat/base 
> > coat
> > finishes, and coating of parts normally left bare as long as it *looks*
> > stock. if the end product does not look stock, it doesn't make the cut.
> >
> >
> > While the latter is a great ideal to shoot
> >> for, the original intent was to allow the points system to penalize
> >> infractions to the "perfect" state on a stock class car that was less 
> >> than
> >> "perfectly" factory stock.
> >>
> >> The question we should be asking ourselves is whether we are being too
> >> critical, and should we "cut some slack" with those who are not "letter
> >> perfect"?
> >
> > whether or not we are too critical depends on whose standard you are 
> > judging
> > corsa by. are we too critical for some other single marque clubs? my 
> > opinion
> > is definitly not. too crital for aaca? i think we're on the money for 
> > them.
> > too crital for a local town car show? yes.
> > so the qustion then goes to what standard do you want be? the best?
middle
> > of the road? or entry level ?
> >
> > I think that we could find some way to preserve our high
> >> standards, yet encourage entrants rather than frustrate them. Perhaps a
> >> points penalization system, rather than an outright disqualification?
> >
> > it's not a disqualification from factory stock, they weren't in it to 
> > begin
> > with.  people who do not make factory stock did not do enough homework.
> > it is not easy to restore a car a car to factory stock. it costs way
more
> > money, and takes much more time to do so, which is a big factor. and it
> > takes alot of reasearch, not just opening up clark's catalogue.
> > and it's much harder on a 'common' car like a corvair where many of the
> > these cars were simply transportation back when they new, and many
> > modifications were made in the course of regular service and repairs. 
and
> > *especially*on a corvair because most service facilities did not like or
> > undestand these cars.
> >
> >> Something to think about...
> >
> > i agree
> >
> >
> >>
> >> -Mark Corbin
> >>
> > lc
> >
> >>
> >>> [Original Message]
> >>> From: Bill Hubbell <whubbell at cox.net>
> >>> To: Larry Claypool <vairshop at sbcglobal.net>; Duanne Luckow
> >> <daluckow at aol.com>; CORSA/CPF BoD <corsabod at corvair.org>; Stock Corvair
> >> Group <scg-list at tiger.skiblack.com>
> >>> Date: 9/3/2009 12:05:53 AM
> >>> Subject: [SCG] Factory Stock Corvair Entries and Stock Preservation
> >> Awardhistory in CORSA Concours 1997-2009
> >>>
> >>> To:
> >>>
> >>> Larry Claypool, CORSA Concours Classification Chairman
> >>>
> >>> Duanne Luckow, CORSA Concours Chair
> >>>
> >>> CORSA Board of Directors
> >>>
> >>> Stock Corvair Group
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Gentleman,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Attached is a summary of all cars entered into the two CORSA Concours
> >>> Factory Stock classes since the development of the Stock Preservation
> >> Award
> >>> in 1997.  Although we have had some great success with recent Factory
> >> Stock
> >>> Restored entries also winning the Mitchell Award, the fact remains
that
> >>> participation in the Factory Stock Classes remains very low.  Please
> >> review
> >>> this information with an eye towards answering the question of what,
if
> >>> anything, we can do to encourage and improve Factory Stock
participation
> >> at
> >>> the Concours level.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Thank you
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Bill Hubbell
> >>>
> >>> President, Stock Corvair Group
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Corsabod mailing list
> > Corsabod at tiger.skiblack.com
> > http://www.vv.corvair.org/mailman/listinfo/corsabod
>
>
>
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