<VV> eum speaker update

[Tony Underwood]

At 01:15 hours 10/04/2004 +0000, kaczmarek@charter.net wrote:
>Good morning everyone
>
>I am reporting back to the group on my request for speaker information for
an LM.
>
>The number of responses weren't as many as I had hoped for but the
consensus is::  


?    

I never saw the first inquiry.    


>Get some empty speaker boxes (walmart has decent ones) and fix them up on
the outside to look the way you want them, then get the best 3 way 6x9's
you can afford, put them in the rear seat well. 
>


Perhaps  I may be able to offer up some information here, seeing as how I
used to be "in the business" of professional automotive sound system
installations and design...  more from the technical end than actual
carving of door panels and deck sheet metal so as to stuff your favorite
pick of the month (and some of those  people changed car stereo gear like
some people change socks) into the whittled holes.     

What I've discovered about "car speakers":    


Those tri-ax 6x9 chromed glorified extravaganza speakers are usually the
result of marketing division think tanks and aimed at the ricer crowd, or
the rice wannabes.   They seldom perform as well as they should.    

No speaker the size of a 6x9 requires individual additional tweeters and
midrange drivers in the same package as the primary transducer.    One of
the best 6x9 speakers I've seen for serious automotive work was the late
1980s vintage Pioneer 6966 series.  They were plain co-ax speakers with a
single solidly mounted tweeter.   The speaker also sported a 2" voice coil
and was capable of handling some serious power without cooking.    And,
they worked well, were efficient, and didn't "screech" when driven hard
like so many tri-ax speakers do.    They weren't cheap... well over 100
bucks for a pair and that was Back When.    But in their day they were
among the best 6x9 speakers available anywhere.   

If you want pretty and shiny, go with then tri-ax and !! quadraxial 6x9
speakers that are available.     If you want some decent performance from a
6x9, look for a co-ax speaker from a name brand manufacturer such as
Pioneer (and I mean something not made in China) or Alpine.    You may have
to look around for used for the 6966 Pioneers...  check Ebay too.    Don't
expect to find a pair anytime soon...   they're scarce these days.   

Ignore ANY 6x9 speaker that's advertised to withstand 200 watts-each or
more.   Horseshit.   Ain't no such thing.  If they lie on specs they lie on
performance.   That includes Pioneer today, which markets 6x9 speakers
claiming 400 watts of power handling capability.    Yeahright.      

Don't give up on a 6" round speaker of perhaps an 8" for that hole in the
dash up front.   With some creative thinking an 8" woofer can be installed
in the dash up front.  You'll need to fabricate mounting bracket hardware
and a mask-frame will be needed but it's not brain surgery.     


It's not impossible  to fabricate some ducted satellite speakers to mount
under the dash.  In fact, there are audiophile series manufacturers who are
beginning to specialize in such small speakers for custom installations.
There are also lots of better quality tweeter packages which will mount on
windshield pillars or alongside sun visor mounts etc.   They can be had
quite small but they deliver a lot of performance IF you don't scrimp on
quality.   I have (in my Corsa ragtop) a pair of Sony "super-tweeters" with
mounts attached to fabricated brackets secured with the factory screws
holding the pillar molding, unobtrusive and not very noticeable unless you
look  right at them.    On the floors I have 5.25" Sony Separates series
midrange drivers in small damped boxes.    They were part of an
installation package Sony was marketing a few years back, got 'em cheap
through  where I worked and they went right into the car, no problems.   I
had to fabricate the boxes for the midrange drivers, plywood packed with
foam to make them inert, sanded smooth and finished outside in semigloss
black, hide out on the floor area "shooting" straight up alongside the vent
panels and are unobtrusive and actually don't get in the way of knees etc
as long as they're placed creatively.    I used the mesh grills which came
in the package.    Another pair of Sony Separates 5.25" mids (without the
tweeters, got 'em used from a guy at work) went into the armrest panels in
back, running in parallel with the ones in the front.    No damping foam
behind them, not convenient to damp them anyway since there's no sealed
enclosure.   I just stuffed a chunk of light weight foam rubber behind the
drivers and screwed the armrest back into place.   Nothing rattles.   The
Separates are good for most freqs between 250hz and ~8khz.   The tweeters
up front take over for high freqs.     They're advertised to tolerate appx
75 watts of real power each for the midrange drivers, and appx 25 watts for
the tweeters although I suspect that's a generous figure...  25 watts of
8khz will ring your teeth and blur your imagination.   The midrange and
tweeters do their work through crossovers.   

These "Separates" drivers are not pretty... they were dark matte gray and
featured no glitz or chrome or anything that would bring attention to
themselves.   They were intended to perform, not look fancy.     And, they
do just that.   I've had these things for almost ten years now and they've
been blasted and abused and they still work fine.   


Low frequency speakers are another matter.   

In a late coupe (early cars as well, to a degree) there's a package area in
back to play with that offers up all sorts of possibilities.    In an
early, there's a useful enclosure area behind the cardboard directly behind
the upper back seat that makes for a handy place to mount speakers on an
appropriately cut and sized (and camouflaged) board mounted correctly.
Works well.   

Ragtops are another matter.   I ended up doing much soul searching and
wound up cutting the car.    I used a cute little computer program I have
to design a woofer enclosure using a ducted-port design to feed low freqs
into the passenger compartment via a 4"x8" port in the firewall between the
trunk and the area behind the dash just above the passenger foot area.
It was amazingly proficient as a sound conveyance and would rattle the
teeth of anybody in the car if I got frisky with the volume control.   
    
This was back in the days when I was going goofy with this stuff... and had
hundreds of watts (REAL watts and not this BS advertising hype) of power to
drive everything.   I used two Stillwater Design 12" Prosound competition
series woofers (excellent pieces, again not pretty, plain black, no frills,
just boom) in the compression-loaded enclosure ducted to the port in the
firewall.    I used an older series Alphasonic 2-channel amplifier good for
better than 500 watts to drive the woofers.    The mid-ranges and tweeters
were driven by a Korean made Sherwood 240 watt amplifier that was a great
performer for the bucks spent although physically a bit large, almost as
big as the half-kilowatt Alphasonic amplifier.   Together, both amplifiers
were strong enough  to destroy the speakers in the car... I did burn up a
couple of woofers (before I got the Stillwater 12's) but I kept a lid on
max levels...  it gets expensive when you start damaging serious audio
gear.    

This is only what I did with the ragtop.    There are other ways to get
around the restrictions inside a late Corvair; it can be as hard or as easy
as you want, depending on  how you want the end result to work and appear.
  It also depends on how much absolute volume you need (not want, need).    

I wanted 750 watts; I didn't need 750 watts.   I could go loud enough to be
heard a block away easily.    No point.    I don't listen to music from a
block away.    The stereo system is currently out of the car... all of
it...  and when it goes back together the woofers will be smaller
(Alphasonic 8" Pro-Delta series) and the amplifiers will be as well.    300
watts (Precision Power MA2150) for the woofers, 150 watts (ADS Powerplate)
for the mids/tweeters, and it's doubtful either one will ever be driven
anywhere near full power... they're gonna be used because they happen to be
on the shelf in the shop and they're both fine quality amplifiers.    They
are both old... dating back to the latter half of the 1980s.   This means
they were built with some substance.   



>One caveat was recieved: Someone bought the clarks dual speaker system for
the LM and said it weren't near up to snuff.   

It's a compromise, actually copied from a Delco 4x10 "stereo" speaker
design intended to allow stereo sound from a 4x10 hole in the dash of
certain long-term production GM vehicles which weren't originally fitted
with stereo capable radios.    A 6x9 pair was also cooked up... and was
also a compromise and not entirely successful.   They also were
environmentally fragile, didn't stand up well to sun and moisture etc.   We
replaced a LOT of them for a while, before people started opting for decent
stereo gear and installing custom speakers in better places.      

The aftermarket variant may well be better quality.    



>I know our vendors carry excellent repro parts, but I also figure that
just like banks are in the banking business , not the printing business (so
their checks cost more), so if you are an audiophile, best to go to the
loud ass stereo place and do your speaker shopping there. No shot at any
vendor intended. 
>

Same here...  but as mentioned above, if you go shopping at audio shops I'd
consider substance over symbolism and avoid glitzy looking speakers...
after all, NOBODY is gonna see them when they're mounted in the car, so the
chrome and fancy design paint is money wasted on hype and does absolutely
nothing for how it's gonna sound.    Avoid also the speakers with
ridiculous power ratings, way too many manufacturers spout out BS power
handling figures, usually the Pacific Rim region imports.    Look for
something co-ax, and not tri-ax or (worse) quadraxial speakers with a good
name brand.    Expect to pay a fair price for a good quality speaker.    


If you aren't all  that current in your knowledge about automotive audio,
try to get familiar with the hardware and the specifics regarding
installation etc before going out and actually buying anything.    Arm
yourself with some ideas of what you want and where you want it to go.
And learn how automotive sound system design works and what you'll be
needing to get where you want to go.   



tony..