<VV> the plan then... Long, Very Long

[WadeHalsey]

Ryan Verthein wrote:

>well, after many replies, I figure this.  I'm going to
>take out the sending unit(and replace it if need be)
>and clean out the inside with a rag and some carb
>cleaner...air out the tank a bit to blow any other
>stuff out...take off the line, put some carb cleaner
>in it, and follow it with air to run the cleaner
>through and get the crud out of the line.  I'm going
>to install an inline fuel filter in the rear of the
>car where that line turns into rubber hose, and use it
>like it is.
>
>I talked to a good number of people on here about it,
>and I talked to my dad(who's a good car guy for most
>stuff...where I learned a lot.)  who all say this is a
>good plan.  Thanks for the help. Ryan 65 Corsa Coupe/110
>  
>
In the early days of VV we had Guru's such as Rad Davis who answered 
questions like this. They have mostly retired to the sidelines but their 
advice remains on hard drives everywhere. Here is how Rad answered a 
similar question about bringing a dormant Corvair back to life. --- Wade 
Halsey

AngryP at aol.com wrote: 
> hey Rad --

hey Patrick,

> i just bought a '69 500 which hasn't been run since 1978.  it's been in the
> san fernando valley since 1969.  i'd like to get the original 110 running
> before i disassemble the car and install the 140 that i'm building.  do you
> have a checklist of things to do before attempting to start an engine that
> has been sitting for so long?

Uh, yeah, I sort of do (guess this should go in an FAQ, huh?):

1.  Jack front of car, cut rubber line in middle, drain all fuel(or
whatever) from tank.  Plug tank cut line piece (clamp), add 1 gal acetone
to tank.  Cap tank.  Let sit at least four days.  Disconnect fuel pump
inlet steel line.  Blow through with compressed air, then soak in acetone
as tank is doing.  Be sure to plug pump end of line or acetone will
evaporate.  Drain acetone from tank and line, blow line out with air. 
Connect tank, line, engine with new rubber hoses (even if the engine end
hose wasn't bad before, acetone isn't good for it). 

Trust me on the fuel system stuff.  It's lots easier to clean tank and 
line than repetitively do carbs.  If you're not planning on driving the 
car, and just want to run the engine, get a 1/4" pipe-barb connector, 
attatch to fuel pump inlet, and feed the engine from a tank and hose 
behind the battery or somewhere.  Don't feed the carbs from those 19-year 
static lines.

2.  Remove the distributor and all six spark plugs.  Put the heaviest
engine oil that will pour at the available temp range down the plug holes
(about 50 mL/cyl).  Drain crankcase and refill with cheap, but not brand X
oil in a 10/40 or 20/50 grade (coking restrictions don't apply--you won't
be using this oil for even 500 miles).  Change filter.  Let oily cyls sit
for at least a day before attempting to turn the engine.  Get/make pump
priming bar (bar stock with flat ground on one end is my fave, long spoon
bits and discarded distributor shafts have also been used).  Hook to your
strongest drill-motor, set to clockwise, and give a good rip.  When the
drill slows down, you've primed the pump.  Let it run another 30 sec like
this (use a watch-it seems like an eternity).  Then try to turn the engine
over with a wrench on the crank pulley.  If successful, turn engine slowly
with wrench while running oil pump--this will fill each rod bearing as the
galleries line up.  Go through two full crank revs like this.  If your
drill is strong, you'll get 20-30 psi, which is enough to pump the lifters
and pushrods up, which will also save you some grief.  If the wrench
wouldn't turn the engine, try a little more leverage(but don't try to
break the crank bolt--it will).  If this didn't work, a fresh battery and
the starter are worth a try.  If the starter won't budge it, you're down
to kerosene, marvel mystery oil, and your favorite deity.  If the starter
*does* budge it, stop as soon as it moves, and turn it by hand--can break
rings on rusty bores otherwise.  Engine turns?  Hand-turned and primed 
through two revs? OK.  Next step:

3.  Hook fuel pump up to fuel source.  Take off the air cleaners and 
cross-pipe.  Jack up back end of car so that
rear wheels are clear of ground.  Use jackstands, because you're going to
run it like this.  Check diff and trans oils (don't skip this one--trust
me!).  Put it in neutral, install a fully charged battery, and give it one
last drill motor priming before you reinstall the distributor (don't hook
up yet--don't want any ignition just yet).  Check everything visually, 
and then get somebody to turn the key while you watch the engine.  Spin 
the engine over on the starter motor for 30 sec (use watch
again--it's even longer when you're holding the key to "start").  
You're watching for gasoline to flood out of a carb...  The oil
light hopefully went out quickly during this.  With no plugs in the
engine, the starter motor just slung oil all over the engine from the
crank throws, which is what we want.  It also blew oil out all six plug
holes, so clean up the mess and install the plugs.  You probably already
primed the fuel pump with the starter, but check it for prime now.  Of 
course, if you have a stuck or sunk float, you found out about pump prime 
from this...

4.  Hook up the ignition and fuel systems.  Check belt tension.  Start the
engine.  IF the carbs primed, and you set the timing right, it'll almost
certainly catch.  If it doesn't seem to want to, check for oil fouled
plugs, tho this is rare after 30 sec of no-plug cranking.  If it catches,
only let it run for about five seconds, then cut it off, put it in first
or low, and restart.  This allows you to pump lubricant to all the
transmission parts quickly, and coat the diff gears all under no load.  A
fast idle should be enough to throw some oil to the pinion bearings, but I
usually change to fourth or high to make sure it works (this is about
equal to 20 mph wheel speed).  Fourth(3rd if no 4th) in the manual transes
also locks the shafts on the trans, which removes any load from the
cluster gear, ensuring it sees oil before load. 

5.  Let it run with the rear wheels whizzing over for at least fifteen 
minutes.  Make sure the chokes and thermostat doors open normally, but 
don't take it off the fast-idle cams--it needs to sling oil around inside 
everything.  It'll smoke you out of the garage--beware.  When it's hot, put 
it in neutral, synch the carbs, set the timing, etc.  Put the engine back 
together.

5a.  For manual transes, the clutch is almost certainly rusted together.  
The quick way to *try* to pop it loose is to put it in fourth, start the 
engine (drive wheels spinning again), and when the engine is warm and 
torquey, tromp the clutch to the floor (you checked for adjustment first, 
didn't you?), goose the throttle and yank up on the handbrake.  Either a) 
the engine will die, b) the clutch will pop loose, or c), you will find 
the handbrake doesn't work.  If c), manually set the fast-idle cams on the 
engine to get it spinning fast, then push the clutch to the floor and 
tromp the brake pedal.  A) or b) will occur.  If a), a more aggressive 
second effort may succeed.  If it doesn't you get to pull the engine and  
do the clutch.

If b), or your automatic works right, Grin, drink beverage of choice, take
it off the jacks and go for a short drive (short only till you check out
steering and flush the brakes). 

BTW, if you had an auto trans, these will sometimes suck up a quart of 
fluid to fill the convertor.  Be sure to check fluid level before 
actually moving the car with the engine for the first time, and watch it 
carefully for the first ten mins driving or so for level changes.

Whew, lotsa work, that.

Rad

AngryP at aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 97-01-12 23:34:40 EST, you write: 
> NOTE:  random snips follow.
> 
> >  Uh, yeah, I sort of do (guess this should go in an FAQ, huh?):
> 
> or included in the tech guide....

I wrote it out to a file.  Will stick it on the server somewhere.
 
> >  1.  Jack front of car, cut rubber line in middle, drain all fuel(or
> >  whatever) from tank.  Plug tank cut line piece (clamp), add 1 gal acetone
> >  to tank.
> 
> where do i go to get acetone?

Once upon a time, you could even get it at K-mart.  Look in the paint 
supplies section.  Be warned, though, that acetone is flammable, 
potentially explosive, and a pretty good anaesthetic.  So be careful 
around it.  Oh, and it has a much higher vapor pressure than most 
components of gasolines, so it's still a danger even at relatively low 
temperatures.
 
> >  Trust me on the fuel system stuff.
> 
> i do trust you.  you're the group chemist.   ;-)
>   
> >  2.  Remove the distributor and all six spark plugs.  Put the heaviest
> >  engine oil that will pour at the available temp range down the plug holes
> >  (about 50 mL/cyl).
> 
> i've been through this step already, but i used marvel mystery oil.  why do
> you recommend using the heaviest oil that will flow at ambient?

MMM is a good penetrating oil, which is what you need if something is 
stuck.  If it isn't stuck, it needs lubrication far worse, since all the 
oil that lubed the bores ran into the pan years ago.  Heavier bodied oils 
have a higher film strength, and you're in a marginal lube situation, so 
that's important.  Hence heavy oil in the cylinders.  This isn't so 
critical before the starting process, but when the engine fires, 
combustion pressure forces the rings into the bores with several hundred 
lbs of pressure, so good lubrication is mandatory if you don't want 
scuffed bores and rings.
 
> >  Then try to turn the engine
> >  over with a wrench on the crank pulley.
> 
> i was able to turn the engine by grasping the vanes on the fan and turning
> it.  the belt was tight enough to turn the crank.

Makes life easier...

> >  3.  Hook fuel pump up to fuel source.  
> 
> any worries of varnish in the fuel pump?

Some, but more worries of brittle parts breaking when you mess with it. 
Just put fuel through it, and it'll be fine.  The volume of the pump is so
small, and basically nothing in it makes powdered rust.  So there's just a
layer of varnish inside.  Acetone will remove plasticizers from the rubber
parts, so don't flush it with anything but gas.  Just trust the gasoline
to do the job.  A small squirt of engine oil down the vent hole on top
won't hurt anything either... 
   
> >  If b), or your automatic works right, Grin, drink beverage of choice, take
> >  it off the jacks and go for a short drive (short only till you check out
> >  steering and flush the brakes). 
> 
> there's a lot of salt on the roads up here in the motor city, so the drive
> will be limited to up'n'down the driveway.

Good idea.
 
> i applied a little common sense over the weekend, so i've already pulled the
> plugs and poured mystery oil in the cylinders, primed the oil pump (twice),
> and turned the motor by hand about 16 crankshaft revolutions.  i was able to
> verify that the pushrod tube seals still leak <g>. 

Priming *while* turning crank is key to getting pressure to all the 
bearings.  Looks like you've lubed at least some of the valve gear, 
though, or you wouldn't have seen oil coming out pushrod tubes.  Good work.

> i pulled the tops off the
> carbs, and neither one had much scum in the bottom, but the gas was pretty
> dark.  

That's varnish.  It is what happens when gasoline oxidizes.  It also 
makes the float pivots and needles stick, which causes the flooding.  Go 
over these carefully and make sure they move freely.

> the accelerator pump cups were crusty, so i'm ordering the "minor kit"
> deal from clark.  i'm probably gonna pull the fuel tank so i can replace the
> rubber filler and vent tube sections, and i plan to order the rubber fuel
> supply and return hoses.

No bad idea.  Put the acetone in along with some clean granite gravel 
(old ball bearings, or what-have you.  Seal all the openings and shake 
the tank like jiffy-pop.  This will dissolve/shake loose the powdered 
rust and varnish that would otherwise end up in the carbs.  Oh, and seal 
the tank while you have it out.
 
> thanks for the acetone reference.  i was wondering what i should use to get
> rid of the varnish in the tank.

I discovered the acetone trick by accident.  In the last job I had, I was 
in the habit of dumping good flammable chemical wastes with a high octane 
rating into the fuel tank in small doses.  Cheaper than waste disposal, 
and a little octane boost too.  Had just gotten my (now crunched) '65 
corsa cp, and it had sat for several years before I got it.  Poured in 
about 1/2 gal of acetone and plugged up the fuel stones on the way home.  
It had completely dissolved the varnish that was gluing all the powdered 
rust inside the fuel tank, and the stuff happily suspended into the fuel 
and was carried to the carbs, where it plugged the stones.  After that 
tank was gone, the fuel system was pristine, and never plugged a stone again.

Acetone applied as a rinse to the Greenbrier's tank gave similar results. Rad