<VV> E85 fuel (NO CORVAIR)

[airvair]

Actually, net energy has EVERYthing to do with it. As my illustration
said, it wouldn't pay to go after that gallon of gas if it took a gallon
of gas to get it. Price becomes irrelevant at that point, because no
matter what price you'd pay for it, you STILL wouldn't have more than
what you started with. So why would you waste your money on trading for
an even (or less) amount? 

Now if you STILL want to go after the gallon of gas, I'm sure you'll
also gladly trade all of your $20's for an equal amount my $1's. After
all, it would be an equivalent number of paper rectangles, right? LOL

-Mark

    While I see some value in considering NET energy, isn't the SELLING
PRICE per unit of energy what really matters?  If the oil
producing countries decide to raise the price per barrel from the
current $60 to say $100 the NET energy won't change at all.  After
all,  they raised the price 35 years ago from $3 to $30.
    I see a similar thing happening with the current prices for natural
gas and electricity.  For many years, the price I paid for natural
gas was about 1/4 of the price for electricity based on energy content. 
Recently, however, the natural gas price is nearly HALF of
the electric price.  Taking into account the relative efficiencies (my
old gas-fired furnace is probably sending 40% of the natural gas
energy up the chimney while electric heat is 100% efficient since NO
energy goes up the chimney) it's nearly getting to the point
where electric heat is approaching natural gas heat on a PRICE basis.
    Since E-85 has about 70% of the energy value of gasoline (on a
gallon basis), E-85 at $2 per gallon is equivalent to $2/70% =
$2.86 for a gallon of gasoline.  This is assuming the same engine burns
either fuel.  If the engine is modified (higher CR or higher
boost or more timing, et al.) to benefit from the higher octane of E-85,
it will do a more efficient job of utilizing E-85's lesser energy
content to narrow the mpg difference between the 2 fuels.  In addition,
the much greater cooling effect of evaporating E-85 in the
intake tract would serve to produce an intercooling effect on a boosted
engine.  Sort of like water-alcohol injection but without the
water.<GGGG>  
    The governor of NY State (George Pataki) has recently announced a
program to put alternative energy fuels like E-85 at service
stations along the NY State Thruway.  In addition, plans are underway to
construct a ethanol fuel plant in southern NJ, so maybe
we will finally begin to see some E-85 for sale in the Northeast.
    Frank "prefers to give my $ to Joe Corncob than to Osama Muhammed"
Burkhard     
 
In a message dated 2/23/06 9:20:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,
airvair at richnet.net writes:

       I just finished a book entitled "What Energy Sources Should Be
Pursued?"
       published by Greenhaven Press (www.gale.com/greenhaven or
       www.thomson.com). It's an anthology of several articles by
       well-credentialed people in several fields such as wind and solar
power
       and alternate fuels.

       The BIG problem as one of them points out is NET ENERGY. To use
his
       illustration, if you only had a gallon of gas in your car, and it
took a
       gallon of gas to get to the gas station and back, but they only
had a
       gallon to sell you, then it wouldn't be worth going after. Hence,
that
       is what net energy is about. Once we reach the point where it
takes more
       energy to get the fossil fuels (such as oil, in crude, shale oil,
etc.)
       than we get out of going after it, then the ballgame's over.
Sure, we
       have potentially enough fossil fuels to last hundreds of years,
but what
       nobody wants to talk about is the very REAL fact that we have
reached
       the point of negative net energy.

       Then there's the problems with electric, hydrogen, wind, solar,
water,
       and even biofuel power. All have dubvious net energy issues, not
to
       mention environmental problems that are often overlooked. All of
these
       are further impacted by increasing population. Once there is no
energy
       to produce enough food, the world's population will peak by
virtue of
       starvation. And electric is incapable of powering large farm
machinery
       or for that matter, passenger jets. Game over!

       I found the book very worthwile reading. It certainly makes one
think.

       -Mark

       Dennis & Debbie PLEAU wrote:
       > 
       > It's my understanding and I'm no expert that it takes 1 BTU of
energy to make 1 BTU of ethanol, by the time you
       grow the corn, haul it to the still and then get it to the tank
farm.  You can ship petro all the way around the world and
       have a net gain in energy.