[SCG] [Corsabod] inspection marks and other things
fregal at comcast.net
fregal at comcast.net
Thu Jun 9 13:41:56 EDT 2011
Gentlemen, I applaud your efforts. The ultimate goal of every true restorer is to reproduce the car in an as delivered condition. This includes correct bolts and nuts, inspection marks, parts tag or stickers, etc. I personally would relish the opportunity to have this information available for use. Weather we can document with 100% certainly is unknown. Whether we would want to include it in concours judging at some point in the future is not for the Board to decide. Having our suppliers reproduce bolts with correct head markings is doubtful. My experience indicates this applies to the high dollar cars such as Vettes, GTO or to be more precise people willing to pay $3 for a bolt when an acceptable fastener can be found at the neighborhood hardware store for 10 cents. Nevertheless the information has value. I have included an attachment which consists of photos of paint marks found on a 1963 Corvair vin #30967W299002 during restoration last winter. I thought this to be of importance in the future so I also loaned the parts to Mike McGowan and he took magazine quality photos. Those can be used as you see fit including for use in a magazine article. I would also be happy to attempt to answer any questions you might have concerning these parts, including reason for paint dab application.
Frank Regal
CORSA Treasurer
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jamie & Tanya Reinhart" <jtreinhart at omnitelcom.com>
To: "Kent Sullivan" <kentsu at corvairkid.com>, "Dave Newell" <chevrobilia at juno.com>, modquad at juno.com
Cc: corsabod at corvair.org, scg-list at tiger.skiblack.com
Sent: Thursday, June 9, 2011 11:08:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Corsabod] [SCG] inspection marks and other things
Kent, I have noted the theme of the conversations and I understand
completely. What I am trying to figure out is everyone says CORSA needs to
endorse the idea of research, but we need to stay out of other things like
concours rules. Are we not all CORSA? Shouldn't the individuals that are
interested in this type of research promote it? I think the research would
be very interesting and fun, and if there are people that want to do it,
great! I'm all for it! But what can CORSA the organization do to promote it?
As far as concours rules go, isn't there a committee of concours experts
that decide what the rules should be and the board just oks them? I'm not
trying to to start an argument, I'm just trying to figure it all out.
Jamie
-----Original Message-----
From: Kent Sullivan
Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2011 10:30 AM
To: 'Jamie & Tanya Reinhart' ; 'Dave Newell' ; modquad at juno.com
Cc: corsabod at corvair.org ; scg-list at tiger.skiblack.com
Subject: RE: [SCG] [Corsabod] inspection marks and other things
Jamie, please check our responses carefully. All of us who have responded so
far have attempted to make it clear that increasing the value or notoriety
of our cars has nothing to do with why we are interested in this research.
For the reasons that we ARE interested, the outcome is definitely worth the
effort.
Thanks,
--Kent
-----Original Message-----
From: scg-list-bounces at tiger.skiblack.com
[mailto:scg-list-bounces at tiger.skiblack.com] On Behalf Of Jamie & Tanya
Reinhart
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 3:30 PM
To: Dave Newell; modquad at juno.com
Cc: corsabod at corvair.org; scg-list at tiger.skiblack.com
Subject: Re: [SCG] [Corsabod] inspection marks and other things
All, I for one appreciate bone stock classic cars, but here is what I
question. At this late date, 41 years after the last corvair was produced,
will starting this difficult process of detailed inspection and
documentation have the same effects on the values or notoriety of corvairs
as say a Z-16 Chevelle, or a ZL-1 Camaro, or a X-11 427 Impala, or a Black
Widow 57 and so on? I just don't see it. I'm not saying it wouldn't be
interesting to research, just wondering if the outcome is worth the effort.
Jamie Reinhart
CORSA President
From: Dave Newell
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 4:51 PM
To: modquad at juno.com
Cc: airvair at earthlink.net ; corsabod at corvair.org ;
scg-list at tiger.skiblack.com
Subject: Re: [Corsabod] [SCG] inspection marks and other things
Hi,
I think you guys aren't giving the Corvair hobby enough credit in the stock
department. Larry Claypool, you (Mark Corbin), myself and others were
stock-conscious even in the 1970s and I think CORSA certainly pioneered
stock judging classes among all of the Chevy car line clubs with the
exception of Corvette. Vette stock interest pretty much paralleled our own,
and Corvette folks were lucky to have the similarly stock-brained,
Claypool-class expert Noland Adams and his books to begin their process of
focusing on originality details.
The dubious Corvette "Bloomington Gold" concours status that developed in
the '80s was a mixed bag though. Cars that achieve the Bloomington Gold
status are anally adherent to what they define as "stock" and cars that make
the grade increase substantially in value. True, more "stock" Corvettes
result from the process but it's largely a money thing. For example, if a
Vette owner has the correct edition warranty booklet in the glovebox,
properly filled out for his car (which usually requires owners to search out
NOS booklets for up to $1K apiece), they get more points and thus their car
increases in value, justifying the investment. I know, because in my
business I sell to this market. Do we really want to get that uptight?
I deal with owners of other Chevy car lines and sell them original
literature, documents and memorabilia. The Nova folks in general are in the
stone age and don't think much about stock at all. The Chevelle folks are
better, especially concerning Z-16s, but have no organized effort or pool of
knowledge. I know a few Impala guys that are just as intense about numbers
VINS, assembly plant details, invoices etc. as I am but again have no
"Stock" group or any history of cooperative research. The "stock" knowledge
among those owners mainly rests among a few individual experts.
The Camaro Research Group stands alone as a group effort and I highly
recommend their website. Kent Sullivan and I have shared body tag options
codes with them and they are as serious as we are.
As to the BoD and concours, exactly the same scenario has existed with the
CPF from the beginning.
Thanks for getting the discussion started....
Dave Newell
---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Mike" <modquad at juno.com>
To: airvair at earthlink.net
Cc: corsabod at corvair.org, scg-list at tiger.skiblack.com
Subject: Re: [SCG] inspection marks and other things
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 20:15:35 GMT
Seems like cars that were built in the same year on the same assembly lines
might have a lot of common build processes - at least in the Fisher body
area. Perhaps one could start building a database for Corvairs based on
information already in existance around Novas for example that came down the
Willow Run line. Of course we would want to verify somehow that the Corvair
operation was done the same way. Undercoating, overspray, inspection marks,
fastener types, suspension finishes, etc might be partially documented this
way. Mike
---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Mark Corbin" <airvair at earthlink.net>
To: "Stock Corvair Group" <scg-list at tiger.skiblack.com>
Cc: CORSA BoD <corsabod at corvair.org>
Subject: [SCG] inspection marks and other things
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 16:04:53 -0400
All,
I got into a discussion today with a friend who's quite the history buff. He
asked about such things as inspection marks, paint overspray, and so forth,
things that are well documented in other clubs from the Corvette club to a
lot of the muscle and pony car clubs. My response was that those folks are
high rollers, and got into that degree of documentation early on. We are
just now getting into just the documentation of what exactly constitutes
stock, and any variations that may have occurred during the model years.
With the coming convention and our annual Stock Corvair Event coming up in
mind, maybe we should add such items to our list of things to look for. Of
course, I'd expect that it's going to be difficult, if not impossible, to
reach the degree of documentation that certain other clubs have achieved. We
are 40 years late to the game.
But as I told my friend, one of the reasons their cars have appreciated to
the degree that is well beyond what their contemporary, the Corvair, has is
because of such documentation efforts. High rollers LIVE for such things,
and one of the reasons they will and probably do shun the Corvair is just
for that reason.
I always knew that concours was the first, biggest step in promoting the
preservation of a marque. It's why, early on, I plunged into the job of
writing CORSA's first set of concours rules (which are in modified form,
still being used today). BUT I also had to fight off a large and vocal
contingent of the board that desperately wanted a watered-down definition of
"stock". They wanted to call "stock" is what we today call "Street Stock",
with such things as mud flaps and aftermarket radios allowed in the class.
It was a battle royal, but I succeeded in preserving the sanctity of stock.
A side note here. One of the CORSA board's historic failures has been the
insistence for micromanaging everything. In this case, they have always
insisted on having the final say on, first, what form the Concours rules
took, and then insisting on having the final say on any modifications to
those rules. And since few qualified concours people are ever elected onto
the board, I feel that it's like having blind men pilot the ship. Concours
is SERIOUS business, and only the truly qualified should EVER be allowed to
hold sway on any judgements pertaining to it. No disrespect meant, but most
board members historically simply are not so qualified, and should remove
themselves from making such decisions.
I just wish that we as a club had been smart enough to take historical
documentation, early on, to the level that other clubs have. What we are
just now finding out is that the value of our cars is tied directly in such
efforts, and that we as a club have shot ourselves in the foot for being so
negligent of our history for so long.
-Mark Corbin
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