Clones, was: <VV> A/C Corsas

Tue Feb 13 18:11:59 EST 2007

As usual ( ;-) ) you get me WAY wrong.

I'm no purist, I don't do show cars, and I frankly don't think it's 
worth paying significantly more for a rare car that differs from a more 
common car by the numbers alone. That's my opinion and my collection 
clearly reflects that.

(As an aside, if Corvairs were worth on the market what _I_  think 
they're worth, I couldn't afford to play with them.)

But the fact I stated is that the car market overall DOES care. That's 
not even arguable.

Does the Corvair market care? We're seeing it with Stingers and '66 
turbo verts. Numbers matter a LOT on those cars.  I don't think we're 
seeing it with AC Corsa verts yet, but I predict we might.

Do I think that's a good thing? In the past 2 years I've sold a Stinger 
and a '66 turbo vert because they were worth more to somebody else 
(because of the "numbers")  than they were to me. So, no, I don't 
particularly think it's a good thing either and further I'm not really 
interested in "playing the game". But what you or I have as an opinion 
doesn't change the market.

IF somebody is willing to pay say  twice the going rate for a '66 Corsa 
AC vert, our opinion that they shouldn't means nothing. My only 
observation was that IF somebody was willing to do that, they would not 
be interested in doing it for a '66 Corsa vert with AC added.

Currently AC adds a pretty set amount to a Corvair value and whether it 
is original or not doesn't mean much.  So from that angle, a numbers 
matching Corsa AC vert IS worth about the same as one with AC added. But 
if we're talking rarity (which is what the recent posts have been about) 
then the "AC added" vert doesn't really figure...

At this point, with the exception of Stingers and those '66 turbo verts, 
model and condition dictates value more than anything else. I'm very 
happy that it is that way, but others aren't. My point was that if they 
want Corvair values to rise, then the rare cars will be the ones to pull 
the others along and the numbers WILL matter... whether we want them to 
or not.

Bill

airvair wrote:

>Sorry Bill, I have to agree with Craig. I hope to God we NEVER get so
>anal as to become "numbers" obsessed, like a lot of Corvette people are.
>Like Craig said, it would suck the fun out of the hobby. Besides, as he
>points out, there ARE legitimate dealer-installed kit accessory cars out
>there, as well as rescued a/c systems. While "factory-installed" is
>often a good indicator as to having all the parts, it's no guarantee.
>Nor is it any guarantee that it'll operate as intended.
>
>As far as clones (or as you guys put it "tribute" cars) goes, again, who
>cares? Traditionally, in the Corvair hobby, few if anyone ever pays
>attention to things such as body codes, window dates, and
>"factory-installed" accessories. Remember that we are lucky to be able
>to even document half the accessories via body codes, and we can only
>approximate such things as window dates. Besides, we're not dealing with
>high-buck 'vettes, muscle cars, etc. Most Corvair owners are just happy
>to have a nicely equipped car to drive and enjoy, and don't wish for
>Corvair values to go into the stratosphere. That's a double-edged sword
>you're playing with, Bill. Watch out who you cut with it.
>
>If there are those, like yourself, who WANT to be numbers-matching, have
>at it. But while I think it's all nice and desirable, I'm not one of
>them as to put too much stock in it all. And most of the Corvair world
>feels the same (and I hope always will.)
>
>-Mark
>
>P.S. BTW, did you know that the rear (plastic) window in convertables is
>also date coded? What are your thoughts on THAT needing to be correct?
>
>Bill Elliott wrote:
>  
>
>>>Craig opines:
>>>Don't forget that GM sold dealer kits that installed factory air parts too. Do those conversions have no value? Does a "rescued" A/C system carfully installed have no value? While decoding body tags is very informative and fun, I strongly object to the total dismissal of a car that doesn't have the dammed "E" on the body tag.  It's still what it is; an A/C Corsa convertible. Maybe it doesn't have 100% authenticity, but it still has very high value and serves to preserve the marque.  In the muscle car scene (think BB Camaros and the like) "Tribute" cars bring very high prices too because buyers respect the difficulty of assembling all the right pieces in the original way - the car DOES have high value even if it is a "made up" car.  I'm also involved in the NCRS ('65 FI) and maintain a registry of them. There's a huge (as in tidal) negative reaction to "numbers" and all the associated fakery. Many, if not most of the "numbers matching" cars don't really have the original c!
>>>      
>>>
> ompo
>  
>
>>>nents - there are just vendors out there that have made a business of making items with numbers or renumbering stuff, and others charge to "authenticate" them.  In the Corvette hobby (which started all this stuff) folks have discovered that worrying about numbers has SUCKED THE FUN OUT of the Corvette hobby.  Please don't take Corvairs down this bridgeless road to...
>>>Craig Nicol
>>>________________________________________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>Of course a Corsa vert with AC added is worth more than an otherwise
>>identical Corsa vert without it, but the rarity and really high value
>>DOES come from the numbers. The person that's willing to pay the extreme
>>dollars for a certain car is going to be educated enough to know what to
>>look for... and why would you expect them to pay something similar for
>>something not so rare.
>>
>>The only reason those tribute vehicles make so much money is that the
>>real thing makes several time more. It's all relative. A completely fake
>>(but well done) Ferrari GTO is going to bring more than a concours
>>Stinger... but still only a small percentage of a real Ferrari GTO.
>>
>>A Stinger "tribute" car carries only a fraction of the value of the real
>>thing... This is not an opinion, this is an appraisal of the market. A
>>'71 GTO Judge convertible (tribute) carries very little value over a
>>non-Judge vert... while the real thing is worth several times either. At
>>Carlisle and Hershey, "tribute" Hemi Cudas and Challengers could be had
>>for less than $50k... know what a real one is worth?
>>
>>While worrying about the numbers may very well suck the fun out of a
>>marque, don't forget it's also what sucks the money in.
>>
>>Bill
>>    
>>
>
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