<VV> Fwd: custom projects?

Sat Nov 14 22:39:51 EST 2009

Gents, I asked Kevin thorton of Extrudabody to provide a basic price for a
two TBI injection system, less injectors (since I told him I wanted to put
in 6 in the manifolds rather than leave two in the throttle bodies)  See his
message, and some air flow tests.
Mark Durham

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Kevin Thornton <kthornton at extrudabody.com>
Date: Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 9:12 AM
Subject: RE: custom projects?
To: Mark Durham <62vair at gmail.com>

 Mark:

The TMAP sensor is Temp/MAP sensor combined and needs to see the runner AIR
volume of only the #6 cylinder, the Manifold design 2 or 4 Carb will not
allow for this correct? Also these sensors are all Plastic, so it would
probably not live to long where it would need to be located from what I see
on the Manifold!

The Difference between 2 Carb and 4 Carb is Night and Day with regards to
fuel injection, my opinion.

Attached is a FLOW study on a Plenum I designed. The software costs $50k,
needless to say the flow study you see was a free-be from a friend. It
illustrates the problem with single inlet manifolds. The GRATE in the center
actually balances out the cylinders better, but with out the grate cylinders
#1 and #6 are VERY LEAN under 20lbs of boost (you can see it in the pictures
with the darker Green on each end compared to the Middle). Boost or no boost
the effect is the same where you have the inlet closer to 1 cylinder than
another. Millions of dollars goes into a Manifold design these days with
slight inside diameter changes to trick the airflow into flowing the same
amount of air per cylinder.

Below is what it would take to build a 2 ITB set-up, with the 6 injectors in
the Manifold aimed at the intake ports. Other parts would be needed to
complete it see below is a List:

   1. Fuel Rail Mounting Brackets.
   2. Electronics, Harness, Sensors
   3. Drilling manifold and adding Weld Bungs.
   4. Injectors

Now will this run correctly? Not sure! You will still have compromises to
make for sure. Below is basically like the BH 2 ITB set-up, but has the
injectors in the Plenum not the ITB’s! Also I am not trying to talk you out
or into one design or the other, just show you the results before you drop
money into something expecting a result and getting another!

*Extrudabody Items*

*Qty*

*SKU*

*Description*

*Price*

*Total*

[image: ITB: Single Throttle
Body]<http://www.extrudabody.biz/servlet/the-184/ITB-cln--Single-Throttle-Body/Detail>

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3850

ITB: Single Throttle
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(40mm Straight Bore)

$119.00

$238.00

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BP-3850-40-SU

Base Plate - 40mm
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$17.25

$34.50

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TCA-36

Throttle Cable,
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THS-01-KIT

Throttle Stop & Cam
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$45.00

$90.00

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TPS-1006 <http://www.extrudabody.biz/servlet/the-125/TPS-dsh-1006/Detail>

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$44.75

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AH-3850-15

Air Horn <http://www.extrudabody.biz/servlet/the-127/Air-Horn/Detail>
(40mm)

$12.00

$24.00

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F-03-S

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IBLOCK

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$9.95

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FR-24-KIT

Fuel Rail Kit, 24"<http://www.extrudabody.biz/servlet/the-82/Fuel-Rail-Performance-Custom/Detail>

$99.00

$99.00

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FR-HW-Kit

Fuel Rail Hardware
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Kevin Thornton

www.extrudabody.com

509-498-8555

-----Original Message-----
*From:* Mark Durham [mailto:62vair at gmail.com]
*Sent:* Saturday, November 14, 2009 10:06 AM
*To:* Kevin Thornton
*Subject:* Re: custom projects?

Kevin, I am not ready to purchase anything and won't be for several years,
so keep working on the electonics. As far as a manifold pressure sensor,
there is no reason why a bung could not be welded in somewhere to add that
feature. This project will probably be done when I do a engine overhaul so I
could also work on airflow issues by porting and polishing the intake
manifold inside. There is a group of corvair enthusiasts who are looking for
a bolt on type kit. I am one of them.

I think good gains are possible even with the stock manifolds. For example,
a local guy took a 140 hp 4 carb engine, added a off the shelf bolt on
Holley 4 barrel carb manifold to it and put a 85 Fiero injection system on
it. He added the individual fuel injectors, and although he did not see much
of a power difference, he did see gains in engine smoothness, a better
torque curve, and his mileage went up to 30 on the highway. Also, he quit
smelling fuel fumes in the garage, which made his wife happy. He says it is
the best running corvair he has ever had.

So, even with the stock manifold limitations, people with 110hp dual carb
engines are looking for a simple bolt on system. I think your smallest MM
bore throttle bodies might do the trick, one on each side. Plus the fuel
rails, carb linkage,etc. Care to come up with a package I can put on the
forum for you?

Mark

On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 6:38 AM, Kevin Thornton <kthornton at extrudabody.com>
wrote:

Mark:

The simple fact that the Head/Manifold is CAST as all one unit changes
everything!

Sequential injection would indeed solve the A/F issue of cylinder to
cylinder when you use 2 ITB’s (this issue May/May not be that large on the
dual Carb manifolds, but if you have a stock manifold with 4 Carbs there’s a
clue there), also if you use 6 ITB’s then batch fired injection is perfectly
fine due to a balanced air flow! Most if not all sequential injection
systems will require a CAM Sensor so the ECU will know what Phase the engine
is on. Honestly you will tie up “COST” in the Electronics and fitment, or
you will tie up “Cost” in the Induction, and only 1 of those makes power
when you want it!

We are working on our own Electronics, but they are no where near ready for
the market, and it is sequential for 6 cylinders with no need for a CAM
Sensor, but we are still working on the proprietary aspects of the
Software/Hardware! It will also not work on the Corvair due to the fact you
can’t put a TMAP Sensor in #6 runner as I don’t see one?

The Black Motor looks like it’s running an Electromotive “GM” Wasted Spark
which is both “batch” fired for Ignition and Injection! The Single inlet
Manifold Per Bank is and forever will be an Issue with balanced air flow.
Air/Water follows the path of least resistance and when the inlet is between
2 cylinders and not all three, the best you can hope for is to run the 2
cylinders between the inlet a little rich as to not run the rear cylinder
lean! Sequential injection with individual Cylinder “TRIM” will do this, but
you will need Exhaust Probes/O2 sensors in each exhaust port to fine tune or
TRIM the injection for those lean cylinders!

The RED Motor is the best set-up I have seen, as it balances the inlet air
flow between all three cylinders. It also can be run with easier to tune
Batch fired injection, but is only limited to the 4 Carb set-up.

Honestly I have never seen the Black hawk set-up, but it is nothing special
we have the parts in inventory and could duplicate that easy, but it
would/does suffer the same drawbacks as the Carb does on the single inlet
per bank! If you want to/Have to stay with the single inlet ITB’s then you
can run injectors in the Manifolds if you want, but it does not solve the
air distribution issues, and you my as well just use 2 ITB’s with 2
injectors run it a bit rich to save the Money!

All this verbiage and $.50 might get you a cup of Coffee, but it’s truthful
and honest from the perspective of what your up against!

Thanks!

Kevin Thornton

www.extrudabody.com

509-498-8555

-----Original Message-----
*From:* Mark Durham [mailto:62vair at gmail.com]

*Sent:* Friday, November 13, 2009 9:33 PM
*To:* Kevin Thornton
*Subject:* Re: custom projects?

Kevin, I'll try to find a pic to show you. But I already know I will not
install a system that fires batch. Its going to be a sequential system that
fires each cylinder at a time, otherwise, why bother?

I just found out where the guy lives that did the Fiero installation, 15
miles from my house, so I'm going to go see that one of these days, and get
his experiences. There is a small but measureable movement to join together
to build a system, prove it, and share with other corvair folks, especailly
the electronics programming part. Megasquirt seems to be the favorite
because it is cheap, and when set up right, works great. You mentioned
electronics on your site but I didn't find anytihng to look at.??

There are several sites to get pics of what happens with a Corvair motor.
Here are a few. The engine in particular is from the American PI site, go to
EFI installations, then find the pic of the black engine with the injector
bungs welded in and the injectors installed. There are several, you can see
one that shows the carb mount plate, and the bungs welded around it, and
another that shows the oval holes cut into the intake log. This is a pretty
good representation of what that would look like in pics 5-9.

http://www.american-pi.com/corvair/html/EFIPics.html

This shows the injector bungs milled and then welded in place.

http://www.corvairnut.com/TunedPort.htm

Enjoy, I could show you some of your direct competitor's work (Blackhawk
Engineering), but I'm sure you've seen it.
Mark

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 1:58 PM, Kevin Thornton <kthornton at extrudabody.com>
wrote:

Hey Mark:

If you send me pictures of what your referring too it helps me to visualized
and better help you!

There’s a good reason GM moved away from TBI “SPLATTER” Technology! J  You
just can’t control what cylinder gets what amount of fuel/air! Just because
the O2 sensor says the engine is 14.7 A/F Ratio doesn’t mean one cylinder or
another isn’t running rich and another is lean to balance the total! I got
25 mpg on the car below and it’s a 2.8ltr. You are on the right track with
the injectors in the runners!

Remember even though you have 1 injector per Cylinder, with 2 ITB’s you
MAY/May not have the same amount of AIR going to each one, if your firing
the injectors in batch MODE (All at once) this means 1 cylinder will be rich
and 1 is lean again! J

Hopefully I am helping and not confusing!

  <http://www.extrudabody.com/images/280Z_lg.jpg>

Kevin Thornton

www.extrudabody.com

509-498-8555

-----Original Message-----
*From:* Mark Durham [mailto:62vair at gmail.com]
*Sent:* Friday, November 13, 2009 3:24 PM
*To:* Kevin Thornton
*Subject:* Re: custom projects?

Kevin, so you can block off the injector ports. good. The reason I asked was
my intent is to use a couple of throttle bodies for air control and weld
bungs into the intake manifold, one above each cylinder. Your commentary
confirmed my own thought process.

However, one guy took a stock system off a 85 fiero, ecu and all, got it
working,and got 30 mpg on the highway. That is a TBI system, I believe, but
the Fiero engine is the same displacment and similar RPM range. It worked in
that situation.

I have already seen a pic of a corvair motor with the six injectors in
place. The intakes are flat on the top and the area above each intake is
available  to cut a oval slot, modify a universal bung so it is at a 45
degree angle to fire the fuel right at the valve and weld in place. So, that
would go well with your throttle bodies and fuel rails, plus throttle cables
to rig the whole thing up.

I'm doing the research as i save money for this project, so, so far i have a
identified a injector arrangement, reasonably priced throttle bodies and
accessories (your site), but the next step is to study the electronics
portion and make selections there, also.

I was just on corvair Center's forum and 65 people had already read the
thread I placed there on your company earlier today. Lots of interest there.

Mark Durham

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Kevin Thornton <kthornton at extrudabody.com>
wrote:

Mark:

Even “Air and Fuel” distribution is the key! 2 Carbs for 6 cylinders = some
cylinders are Rich and some are Lean all there is to it, especially true
when your talking about MASS Produced Aluminum Castings! Any time you can
get the number of injectors closer to the number of Cylinders your headed in
the right direction! This is not to say that 2 injectors on a 2.7ltr/95hp
motor will not work, but it is still subject to the same compromises as the
Carbs are!

Injectors close to the Valve is good for emissions/throttle response,
further away for power, this is true to a certain point, the longer the
distance from Injector to the intake valve allows more “TIME” for the fuel
to emulsify into the Air Charge especially at High RPM. The latent
evaporation of the fuel COOLS the charge as well, where by making the charge
more dense, which needs more fuel! This is counter intuitive for fuel
Economy that is why you see injectors close to the valve, and F1 with an
injector close to the Valve and one in the AIR BOX per cylinder.

We have Injector Block Off’s for our ITB Bungs, as we build ITB’s in large
LOTS at once and we sell 97% more with bungs, than without!! This just helps
keep cost down!

Extrudabody was designed from the start to be Universal in nature, you can
pick and choose the parts that best fits your budget & Performance Goals!

I took the liberty to put together a few example systems:

*6 ITB Kit: You would need to TIG weld runners between the Head Plate you
built to our Weld Plate:*

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3X112

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TCA-36

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*2 ITB Kit: Drill the Universal Base plates for the Corvair dual Carb bolt
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THS-01-KIT

Throttle Stop & Cam
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$45.00

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TCA-36

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$15.00

$15.00

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SU-ITB-KIT-45mm

KIT: Datsun L Series 4-Cyl. Twin SU
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Hope this helps!

Kevin Thornton

www.extrudabody.com

509-498-8555

-----Original Message-----
*From:* Mark Durham [mailto:62vair at gmail.com]

*Sent:* Friday, November 13, 2009 1:07 PM

*To:* Kevin Thornton
*Subject:* Re: custom projects?

Thanks kevin, the message is exactly what we wanted. This is going to the
Virtual Vairs site and to the corvair forum, so, there are lots of people
around the world that read these messages.

In our situation (corvair), some have added a throttle body system on a
quadrajet manifold adapter, others are adding a TBI for each bank, others
are adding a injector for each cylinder. With two banks of three, what in
your viewpoint would send people one way or another? I believe I have read
that multiport is more efficient that throttle body, but then here we have
two throttle bodies on the non-turbo's which reduces the difference in
efficiency between the two. Your thoughts?

Can your throttle bodies be supplied with no injector hole if we decide to
do a car with 6 injectors?

Thanks, Mark Durham

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 6:34 AM, Kevin Thornton <kthornton at extrudabody.com>
wrote:

Hey Mark:

A little Long, but hopefully give you guys lots of information to help
decide what is the best direction for the Corvair World with regards to
“Carb Replacement to All out performance”

All our ITB’s are individual and we have Single, Pair & Triple base plates,
but most of the old Performance “Weber” Manifolds are set-up for PAIRS! We
can adapt to any of the Manifolds for 2 Carbs, 4 Carbs, or 6 Carbs! We have
Triples to fit the Stock Porsche 911 Manifolds now in 45mm, and we have 2
other Base plates with different Triple Bore Spacing.

Complete Product Line is here: www.extrudabody.biz

Weld Plates:   http://www.extrudabody.biz/servlet/the-Weld-Plates/CategoriesUsed
to build various Manifolds configurations!

ITB Triple with Weld Plates:
http://www.extrudabody.biz/servlet/the-236/3-x-112mm-B/Detail   The 3 on
112mm Bore spacing and includes the WELD Plates they are 45mm as well!

Base Plates:
http://www.extrudabody.biz/servlet/the-Base-Plate-Products/Categories Weber
Based DCOE/IDF/IDA in Pairs. Also Universal Single base plates!

For the ULTIMATE Monza?????????? We have numerous ITB/Turbo’s running! You
can see 1 of them Here: http://www.vimeo.com/7034127  You can also do a
Extrudabody Search on Youtube to see more running installs both N/A & Turbo.

Flow Test results by an Independent Flow Tester:
http://www.extrudabody.com/TechInfo/FlowInfo.html  The TEST was between
Extrudabody and TWM, and Extrudabody Airhorns and TWM’s Horns. Results speak
for themselves!

Also we are working on Multiple Air-Cooled Products to include “Dual Pull”
Cable set-ups for Aircooled’s to help with engine expansion and CARB Synch.
This is and always has been available from Extrudabody for Bank to Bank
Synch!  See Tutorial here: http://www.extrudabody.com/TechInfo/Throttle.html

We are working our TAILS off trying to get Electronics on the market and we
have a couple of features not seen else where ON ANY AFTERMARKET ECU
COMPANY: We are beta TESTING at the moment

1.      TMAP Synch: TMAP sensor is mounted in last “#4 or #6” Runner, it
looks for an Event that allows SEQUENTIAL injection with no NEED for a Cam
Sensor.

2.      TMAP Control: We have 30kpa at idle, with NO Vacuum Log, No Multiple
Cylinder Hoses to a central point, just 1 sensor in #4 or #6 Runner!

3.      Coil Pack and KNOCK sensor control for 4 & 6 Cylinders!

4.      Wideband feedback self Tune

5.      EOBD2 Port allows any of the EOBD2 Scanners to diagnose a Sensor
failure! This is also the Communications PORT to Tune the ECU!

Our Bodies work just as good with MegaSquirt as they do with ECU’s costing
10 times the cost, so the end choice is really up to the installer!

Hopefully this will spark some debate or generate some interest in the
Corvair World toward EFi!

Thanks Mark!

Kevin Thornton

www.extrudabody.com

509-498-8555

-----Original Message-----
*From:* Mark Durham [mailto:62vair at gmail.com]
*Sent:* Thursday, November 12, 2009 8:51 PM
*To:* info at extrudabody.com
*Subject:* custom projects?

Hi, I've looked at your web site with interest. I am like a lot of guys who
own antique cars that are looking for a way to get rid of the carburetor's.
I own a Corvair Monza which has a flat six 2.7 L that is rated from 95 hp to
180 with no change in displacement. They get 2 carbs, one on each bank, four
carbs, two on each bank, or turbocharging.

I see that all of the throttle body packages are in pairs. Can you do them
as single units, so we Corvair owners could make adapter plates and bolt
them to existing manifolds? Do you also sell the rest of the needed fuel
injection parts, the computers, injectors, fuel [pumps etc?

There are only two places that advertise Corvair fuel injection but
thousands of cars out there. Some have taken complete systems from older
cars, the 1985 Pontiac Fiero 6, seems to work well.

Thanks. Whatever you give me I will add to our Corvair Forums for everyone
to read.

Mark Durham

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