<VV> master cylinder R & R - Flat Rate crap shoot

Ron ronh at owt.com
Wed Aug 18 00:19:06 EDT 2010 

Flat rate means absolutely nothing when working on a 45 or more year old 
car.  I would assume that the real time is at least ten times any listed 
flat rate as all the parts removed need to be cleaned, derusted and painted 
as appropriate.  Badly corroded fasteners need to be replaced and this could 
mean a trip to the bolt store.  Time really flies when you are doing things 
the right way.
RonH

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Charles Lee" <Chaz at ProperProper.com>
To: "Rodney Spooner" <rodneyspooner at corvairgarage.com>; "'Lon Anderson'" 
<lonzovair at aol.com>
Cc: <virtualvairs at corvair.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 8:33 PM
Subject: Re: <VV> master cylinder R & R - Flat Rate crap shoot


> If it's a crap shoot quoting the Flat Rate Manual, I think the dice are
> loaded...
>
> At the time, it WAS new (and my junk spare Vair was in worse shape than 
> the
> driver, being just a parts car).
>
> We can start with a 'new' car and then extrapolate for all the things that
> can go wrong.
>
> I would like to actually experience a mechanic who quotes a price based on
> expected labor time, and then comes back and says "It took less time so 
> I'll
> charge you less."
>
> I do not want to hear mechanics who say they would do that "if it happened
> but it doesn't" because I'm fairly sure it must.
>
> Like the svc mgr at Fritz Ford admitted, easy jobs subsidize the hard 
> ones,
> but that is just plain wrong, even if it does come out even eventually - 
> not
> for the guy whose job was easier !
> Plus, I'm fairly sure that they DO charge more if it goes longer, but 
> we'll
> never really know, will we ?
>
> Like this :
>
> My Audi had an aluminum water pump with steel studs, so I brought it to a
> "competent professional" since he'd know how to deal with removing steel
> from aluminum without stripping it, right ?
>
> So, he charges 4 1/2 hours "flat rate" and unbeknownst to him I'm in the
> restaurant across the street reading a book, noticing that my car never
> moves except for about an hour or so, then it's back outside.
>
> I call him after waiting a suitable amount of time (so he doesn't know I'm
> watching, to see whether he's the guy I just described ?)
> He Tells me that it'll cost an extra hour because the stud stripped the 
> pump
> and he had to take longer to fix it.
> Hmmm, I thought a competent mechanic would know how to avoid that, and 
> it's
> the ONLY reason I brought to someone else !)
>
> I paid him, because I knew I couldn't prove it, and I needed my car back
> without delaying even more.
>
> I was satisfied that my theory was proven, at least to me.
>
> Yes, I understand that there are honest mechanics out there and most of us
> are, but I would really like to meet one (who works on my car) !!!!
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Rodney Spooner" <rodneyspooner at corvairgarage.com>
> To: "'Charles Lee'" <Chaz at ProperProper.com>; "'Lon Anderson'"
> <lonzovair at aol.com>
> Cc: <virtualvairs at corvair.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 6:29 PM
> Subject: RE: <VV> master cylinder R & R (was Starter Installation 
> Question)
>
>
>> It's a crap shoot quoting the Flat Rate Manual. Those estimates were made
>> when working on a new (or "fresher" car), not a 40 or 50 year old classic
>> where iron nuts and bolts have become one, undoing numerous PO's "jerry
>> rigging", stripped thread holes, bad/broken/brittle connectors and
>> grounds,
>> etc. There always seems to be a "surprise".
>>
>> Rodney
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: virtualvairs-bounces at corvair.org
>> [mailto:virtualvairs-bounces at corvair.org] On Behalf Of Charles Lee
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:42 AM
>> To: Lon Anderson
>> Cc: virtualvairs at corvair.org
>> Subject: Re: <VV> master cylinder R & R (was Starter Installation
>> Question)
>>
>> I ask because it's one of my earliest experiences "beating" the Flat Rate
>> Manual, but the mechanic may have, um, misquoted the actual hours ?
>>
>> While I waited for the mechanic who could not work until later that week,
>> I
>> tried it myself and did it in about 15 minutes on my "spare Vair" having
>> never done it, and having no idea how.  (I paid another shop to bleed the
>> brakes)
>>
>> So, I'm curious if I was quoted right ?
>>
>> Charlie
>>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>>  From: Lon Anderson
>>  To: Chaz at ProperProper.com
>>  Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:33 AM
>>  Subject: Re: <VV> Starter Installation Question
>>
>>
>>  Charlie,
>>  Are you talking replacing a single reservoir master cylinder? Or a dual
>> reservoir master cylinder such as found in a 67?
>>  My books are home, and I'll check when I get there, but I need to know
>> which one you're talking about.
>>  Later,
>>  Lonzo
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>>  From: Charles Lee <Chaz at ProperProper.com>
>>  To: LonzoVair at aol.com; ricknorris at suddenlink.net
>>  Cc: virtualvairs at corvair.org
>>  Sent: Tue, Aug 17, 2010 12:08 pm
>>  Subject: Re: <VV> Starter Installation Question
>>
>>
>> Out of curiosity, how long does it give for a master cylinder on a 1965
>> Corsa ?
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: <LonzoVair at aol.com>
>> To: <Chaz at ProperProper.com>; <ricknorris at suddenlink.net>
>> Cc: <virtualvairs at corvair.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 5:06 AM
>> Subject: Re: <VV> Starter Installation Question
>>
>>
>>> The 1969 Chevrolet Flat Rate book says half an hour to replace the
>>> starter.
>>> Overhaul of the starter (does not include replacing field coils or
>>> recondition  armature) is .8 hour (and includes replacing the starter
>>> drive)...
>>> Any other Flat Rate questions, let me know.... I have 1960 through 1969
>>> (the separate little books, not some conglomeration of info), and it
>>> covers
>>> all  Chevys.
>>> Later,
>>> Lonzo
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 8/17/2010 3:28:56 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>>> Chaz at ProperProper.com writes:
>>>
>>> At 64,  that's about how long it takes me -
>>>
>>> Anyone have a Flat Rate Manual that  shows how long it takes a mechanic
>>> with
>>> tools, lift, and experience to do  it ?
>>>
>>> Maybe it was the mechanic just making up flat rate hours  ?
>>>
>>> When I've said that I can beat the Flat Rate Manual, I was taking the
>>> mechanics word for the labor time, but I never actually verified what 
>>> the
>>> FRM said, so that may be another area I need to be less trusting, and
>>> reduce
>>> my ignorance, by asking to see the manual that they use to  calculate ?
>>>
>>> On the ZX-2 ZTEC cylinder head, I was quoted anywhere from  7.5 to 10.7
>>> hours, depending on the shop.
>>>
>>> I've also found that  asking such questions makes them not want to work
>>> on
>>> my
>>> car.  I  wonder why's that ?  Hmmm...
>>>
>>> Charlie
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message  ----- 
>>> From: "Rick Norris" <ricknorris at suddenlink.net>
>>> To: "Bill  H." <gojoe283 at yahoo.com>; <virtualvairs at corvair.org>
>>> Sent:  Monday, August 16, 2010 2:28 PM
>>> Subject: Re: <VV> Starter  Installation Question
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bill,
>>>> It is easier to do  this job wiyh the left rear wheel removed. In my
>>>> younger
>>>> days  I could do this in about 20 minutes!
>>>> Now, that is a  nap!
>>>>
>>>> Rick Norris
>>>> #36 Sunoco Corvair
>>>>  www.corvairalley.com
>>>>
>>>> B"H
>>>>
>>>> Hi  folks!
>>>>
>>>> Has anyone figured out a good way to install a starter  on a 110 
>>>> engine?
>>>> I
>>>> got
>>>> under the car with my mechanic's  creeper, the car was up on ramps, but
>>>> I
>>>> just
>>>> couldn't get at  that top bolt!
>>>>
>>>> Further, I'm afraid I wouldn't have the  strength to lift the new
>>>> starter,
>>>> and
>>>> hold it in place while I  put the bolts through.
>>>>
>>>> I was wondering if it would be easier  to jack the driver's side up,
>>> remove
>>>> the
>>>> rear wheel, and try  to access the starter from the wheel well?
>>>>
>>>> I'd appreciate any  adivce. If it can only be done from directly under
>>>> the
>>>> car,
>>>>  I'm afraid I'm gonna have to let a mechanic do it, who has a  lift.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks!...Bill Hershkowitz 69 Monza Coupe 110  PG
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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