<VV> LM turbos and no lower shrouds

shortle shortle556 at earthlink.net
Tue Oct 25 17:00:52 EDT 2011 

The 
>idiot light on the Corvair comes on over 280, maybe 290, or so

What idiot lite? And what is being measured? Except for a 1960, oil temperature is neither measured nor monitored.
Timothy Shortle (back) in Durango Colorado 81301



-----Original Message-----
>From: "Eric S. Eberhard" <flash at vicsmba.com>
>Sent: Oct 25, 2011 1:26 PM
>To: jvhroberts at aol.com, virtualvairs at corvair.org
>Subject: Re: <VV> LM turbos and no lower shrouds
>
>Hmm ... Mobil1.com mentions their oils are safe at sustained temps 
>over 500 degrees.  Of course I would expect most of the rest of the 
>car to melt down!  Although my diesel run EGT temps over 1300 degrees 
>for very long sustained periods and nothing has melted on that!  .  260 
>is NOT hot.  In fact my Judson car does not even run well until I get 
>the oil temps over 260 (head temps be darned).  If I advance the 
>timing on that car I can make it so that the idiot light wants to 
>come on going up the hot steep grades, so I do have to keep it (not 
>surprisingly) close to stock.
>
>Cooler is NOT always better.  The dampers on my cars seem to regulate 
>temps -- rarely, in fact, are they fully open.  Generally they are 
>partially open unless hot and flogging it.  With normal driving head 
>temp rarely change, except on long grades when boost goes up, they 
>will rise.  I suspect the doors are fully open but I never ran back 
>to check while driving :-)   Check this article on Corvair oils out 
>... you will note that until the oil is over 210F you are not even 
>getting good lubrication and likely are bypassing the oil filter and 
>using dirty oil.  Prolonging warm-up and running too cold is BAD, not 
>good.  Yes it is cooler, cooler not always good.
>
>http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Corvair_oil.pdf     (this is excellent info BTW)
>
>Note that he points out that 320F+ temps are found in turbos ... I'd 
>think the idiot light would scream as my 102 with Judson will scream 
>before 290 ...
>
>You do know they use mostly stock Corvair engine on 
>airplanes?  Without any cooling fan?  With turbo motors?
>
>I wonder if you have actually tried a more or less stock car that was 
>correct?  For example, some discount the muffler design or change the 
>carb.  Both of these were designed to limit boost.  If you changed 
>these out ... you are running more boost than was intended, which is 
>when the can of worms is opened.  Have you tried one with everything 
>in place with correct carb, muffler, timing, etc?  Dwell 
>correct?  All that good stuff.  And then seen if it over heats?
>
>E
>
>At 03:23 AM 10/25/2011, jvhroberts at aol.com wrote:
>>I had an oil temp gage, and overcooled oil wasn't an issue! With oil 
>>temps hovering around 260, I should've installed a more effective oil cooler.
>>
>>The thermostats on a Corvair were never meant to regulate 
>>temperature as they do on a water pumper, they're meant to speed 
>>warm up, with the possible exception of the 1960 setup. But the less 
>>said about the toilet seat the better!!
>>
>>As such, consistent engine temps are a pipe dream on a Corvair, they 
>>just don't happen, as cooling limitations abound.
>>
>>For a stock turbo car, anything done to improve cooling is a 
>>definite improvement. Drive a stock N/A car hard, the same thing is true.
>>
>>John Roberts
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Eric S. Eberhard <flash at vicsmba.com>
>>To: jvhroberts <jvhroberts at aol.com>; virtualvairs <virtualvairs at corvair.org>
>>Cc: virtualvairs <virtualvairs at corvair.org>
>>Sent: Mon, Oct 24, 2011 8:48 pm
>>Subject: Re: <VV> LM turbos and no lower shrouds
>>
>>
>>I don't think we disagree :-)  I am a turbo owner most of the time
>>(don't actually have one now).  It will run cooler without
>>shrouds.  No argument.  The argument is whether that is a good thing 
>>or not ...
>>
>>The question is -- will it run consistent temperatures?  Will it warm
>>up fast enough?  Will it ever run too cool (oil temps under
>>220)?  Will anything be damaged by hot engine parts getting soaked in
>>cold water.  How do like all that dirt and crud all over parts of the
>>engine never designed to be exposed?  Throw a rock, bend a pushrod
>>tube, lose an engine?
>>
>>And I guess it depends on your definition of "adequate" is ... mine
>>is within the range on the gauge and not popping off the idiot light!
>>
>>The gauge on a Spyder ranges from 200 to 600 ... and generally "in
>>the middle" is what is considered the normal operating range.  So 400
>>is certainly not too hot.  If your car runs at 300, that is awfully
>>cool and is costing you mileage.  If you are driving around town and
>>it is under 220 you are sludging your engine horribly.  If you are
>>425-450 you are still close to the center of the gauge and I think
>>that is fine --  350-450 is pretty normal, I would not get excited
>>even 25 more degrees from that.
>>
>>You might want to go drive it at 300 for a while, then stop, and use
>>a heat measuring gun on the oil filter.  I bet you are under 220 and
>>you are damaging your engine by being too cool.  Also, I bet you
>>drive hard part of the time, and like a commuter most of the time.  I
>>bet you have wide swings in temps (shoot it with a heat gun).  That
>>also is very hard on the engine.
>>
>>All I am saying is that cooler is not always better and it is easy to
>>keep a stock car where it belongs by leaving the stock cooling system
>>alone.  If you modify it, carefully consider the cooling mods as part
>>of the project.
>>
>>E
>>
>>At 05:23 PM 10/24/2011, <mailto:jvhroberts at aol.com>jvhroberts at aol.com wrote:
>> >As a turbo owner, I'd have to say you're dead wrong. Mine definitely
>> >ran cooler with the lower shrouds removed, and even then, adequate
>> >is NOT a word I would use! These cars can always use more,
>> >especially at prolonged full power.
>> >
>> >John Roberts
>> >
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Eric S. Eberhard <<mailto:flash at vicsmba.com>flash at vicsmba.com>
>> >To: jvhroberts <<mailto:jvhroberts at aol.com>jvhroberts at aol.com>; 
>> virtualvairs <<mailto:virtualvairs at corvair.org>virtualvairs at corvair.org>
>> >Sent: Mon, Oct 24, 2011 5:36 pm
>> >Subject: Re: <VV> LM turbos and no lower shrouds
>> >
>> >
>> >I really think that a stock engine with the stock cooling is more
>> >than adequate.  In fact, I would bet money that a stock engine with
>> >stock cooling runs COOLER than one with the shrouds removed.  And I
>> >dare you to drive spiritedly and get that lower part really hot and
>> >then splash through some cold water.  And, I really like my heater in
>> >the winter.
>> >
>> >You don't get much worse (for straining the cooling system) than the
>> >spirited driving in AZ where 105 is common, 120 happens .... I never
>> >had cooling problems even on steep grades.  I drove my little Spyder
>> >30k miles and it never complained.  I've gone over 100 mph in that
>> >car when it was over 100.  My coupe has A/C and PG and I can drive it
>> >up a 6% grade with A/C on (which blows ice BTW stock except Sanden
>> >compressor) at 75 (my engine is tweaked a little, it is a 110 instead
>> >of 102) when it is 105 out, no problems.  In fact in all of my life
>> >of having Corvairs (including 2 LM turbos and 1 EM turbo) and always
>> >with stock shrouds, bellows, doors, and very importantly the sealing
>> >of the engine compartment -- I have never had a Corvair
>> >overheat.  Not even after losing a belt (STOP fast!).  In fact, if
>> >anything I'd complain that it warms up too slow on cold days ...
>> >seems to take forever even with the doors closed and the summer
>> >plates off.  And I am not in-experienced -- I've had them 35 years,
>> >10 more years if count the ones I worked on with my grandpa, and I
>> >have owned as many as 10 at a time, never zero, and currently
>> >2.  Last time I checked I have had more than 30 Corvairs.  I actually
>> >do know what I am talking about.  So I will simply have to agree 
>> to disagree.
>> >
>> >E
>> >
>> >At 03:30 AM 10/23/2011, 
>> <<mailto:jvhroberts at aol.com%3Ejvhroberts at aol.com?>mailto:jvhroberts at aol.com>jvhroberts at aol.com 
>> wrote:
>> > >Um, the stock system is not all that and a bag o' chips. Sorry. For
>> > >those of us who have turbo cars, etc., the cooling is utterly
>> > >inadequate. Removing the shrouds produces a noticeable drop in CHT
>> > >and oil temperature.
>> > >Even on a non turbo car, if driven spiritedly, the cooling system
>> > >runs out of breath.
>> > >
>> > >So, there is, in fact a better system out there. GM simply failed to
>> > >install it!!
>> > >
>> > >John Roberts
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >-----Original Message-----
>> > >From: Eric S. Eberhard 
>> <<<mailto:flash at vicsmba.com%3Eflash at vicsmba.com?>mailto:flash at vicsmba.com>flash at vicsmba.com>
>> > >To: virtualvairs 
>> <<<mailto:virtualvairs at corvair.org%3Evirtualvairs at corvair.org?>mailto:virtualvairs at corvair.org>virtualvairs at corvair.org>
>> > >Sent: Sun, Oct 23, 2011 2:30 am
>> > >Subject: <VV> LM turbos and no lower shrouds
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >I am always puzzled by this discussion which comes up every so
>> > >often.  The car was designed well from the factory.  If you have
>> > >everything correct -- all the shrouds as well as seals and so forth,
>> > >there is no better system.  I am in AZ, totally bone-stock, at
>> > >altitude (3500-8000 feet), summer temps of 110 ... and I NEVER have
>> > >even gotten remotely close to overheating.  Our speed limit is 75 and
>> > >I can go up a 6% grade at 80, no over heating.  From my 3500 to 7500
>> > >feet happens in 6 miles, no overheat even at 80.
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >Eric S. Eberhard
>> >(928) 567-3727          Voice
>> >(928) 567-6122          Fax
>> >(928) 301-7537                           Cell
>> >
>> >Vertical Integrated Computer Systems, LLC
>> >Metropolis Support, LLC
>> >
>> >For Metropolis support and VICS MBA
>> >Support!!!! 
>> <<http://www.vicsmba.com%3Ehttp://www.vicsmba.com>http://www.vicsmba.com>http://www.vicsmba.com
>> >
>> >For
>> >pictures:
>> ><<http://www.vicsmba.com/ourpics/index.html%3Ehttp://www.vicsmba.co 
>> m/ourpics/index.html>http://www.vicsmba.com/ourpics/index.html>http://www.vicsmba.com/ourpics/index.html
>> >
>> >(You can see why we love this state :-) )
>> >
>>
>>
>>Eric S. Eberhard
>>(928) 567-3727          Voice
>>(928) 567-6122          Fax
>>(928) 301-7537                           Cell
>>
>>Vertical Integrated Computer Systems, LLC
>>Metropolis Support, LLC
>>
>>For Metropolis support and VICS MBA 
>>Support!!!!    <http://www.vicsmba.com>http://www.vicsmba.com
>>
>>For 
>>pictures: 
>><http://www.vicsmba.com/ourpics/index.html>http://www.vicsmba.com/ourpics/index.html
>>
>>(You can see why we love this state :-) )
>>
>
>
>Eric S. Eberhard
>(928) 567-3727          Voice
>(928) 567-6122          Fax
>(928) 301-7537                           Cell
>
>Vertical Integrated Computer Systems, LLC
>Metropolis Support, LLC
>
>For Metropolis support and VICS MBA Support!!!!    http://www.vicsmba.com
>
>For pictures:  http://www.vicsmba.com/ourpics/index.html
>
>(You can see why we love this state :-) )  
>
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