<VV> Forum

Tue Mar 19 00:58:18 EDT 2013

Apparently, I've already used up all of my synapses (sp?).  Thanks for 
taking the time and energy to put that very cogent and meaningful email 
together.

Later, JR

CCE CORSA CORVANANTICS SCG member
'61 Rampside Standard 4/110
'65 Monza Convertible 4/140
"Keep the Love Alive"

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steven J. Serenska" <corvair at serenska.com>
To: <virtualvairs at corvair.org>
Cc: <jon at jonwoolf.com>
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 9:39 PM
Subject: Re: <VV> Forum

> Dear Jon, Matt, Sewing Circle Members, and Other Interested Hens:
>
> The following is pedantic, borderline sanctimonious, and chuck full of
> meta-comments and other bullsh*t computer jargon.  What I have to say is
> annoying as hell, at least in part.  Press delete if you've got a synapse.
>
> You've been warned.
>
>
> Jon Woolf wrote:
>> This is more of a sewing circle than an informative forum- think I'll
>> leave you ladies to your gossip and go play with my Corvair.
>>
>> Been nice.  Please remove my name from all of your mailing lists.
>
> And Matt commented:
>> Funny.. on the VV website.. it tells you how to SEARCH ARCHIVES 4 
>> different ways!
>>
>> And I would think a new member would do that to find out what "subjects" 
>> may be "problems"
>>
>> I'd apologize to you... but your instant "opinion of us" makes that 
>> impossible!
>>
>> Best of everything to you!  We're all having fun!
>
>
> Matt further pointed out:
>> Google search using "Electric fan site:www.vv.corvair.org" came up with 
>> 494 messages just since we started the archives.
>
> IMHO -- which is worth precisely $0.02 -- Jon W. needs to crawl off
> somewhere and perform some skin-thickening exercises.  We all do from
> time to time and, apparently, Jon's time has come.  I haven't seen a
> reaction like that since Pastor Bob trawled these waters.
>
> But Matt, let's be fair to Jon.  You said:
>
>     - "Funny.. on the VV website.. it tells you how to SEARCH ARCHIVES
> 4 different ways!"
>
>     - "Google search using 'Electric fan site:www.vv.corvair.org' came
> up with 494 messages"
>
> Where exactly are the instructions concerning how to do all this? Where
> are the instructions advising that you even SHOULD do this before posting?
>
> Here's what I just did:
>
>  1) In response to your first comment, I clicked the "Archives at" link
> found in every email and digest.  That brought me to
> http://www.vv.corvair.org/pipermail/virtualvairs.  Unless I've gotten
> dumber and blinder in my advancing years, there are NO instructions for
> how to search the archives at this link.
>
>  2) There IS, however, an alluring link labeled "You can get more
> information about this list" where the words "more information about
> this list" are a blue underlined hyperlink.  I'm a sucker, so I
> clicked.  It brought me to
> "http://www.vv.corvair.org/mailman/listinfo/virtualvairs".  Here's what
> you find at that link:
>
>     a) An advisory that the list is "Open to all Corvair related
> postings, all years, stock to specialty."
>
>     b) A circular link that tells you "To see the collection of prior
> postings to the list, visit the VirtualVairs Archives" (i.e., the place
> you just linked from).  In the world of computer programming, following
> a link to yourself is called "recursion". In real life, it's called
> "chasing your f*ing tail."
>
>     c) There are also instructions for subscribing and posting.
>
>     d) There are numerous links and other doo-dads available for
> administrators only.  These are off limits for us mere sewing-circle
> mortals.
>
> There are NO instructions for searching the archives.  Or am I missing
> something obvious?
>
> But because Matt said......
>
>> Funny.. on the VV website.. it tells you how to SEARCH ARCHIVES  4 
>> different ways!
> ....I went and tried to search the VV website, i.e., I went to 
> www.vv.corvair.org.  There's a little intro, and some nice instructions 
> about accessing the Members Area, but there are NO INSTRUCTIONS about 
> searching the archives.  Not one instruction, not two, and certainly not 
> four.
>
> While you're on the VV website, if you use the cool little Delco radio 
> buttons, and click "Archive", you'll get to a fairly dense little blurb 
> that announces:
>
> "The Digest Files button will take you to a files index. Once you arrive 
> at the index, click on a file to open it. There are no return links on the 
> text pages, so it will be necessary to use your browser's "Back" button to 
> return to this page."
>
> Well, ok, but THAT doesn't seem like something that "tells [me] how to 
> SEARCH ARCHIVES 4 different ways!", so I didn't bother.
>
> There is a cool final sentence that says: "Alternately, you can use the 
> search feature, below.".  If you put in a search term and click that 
> button, voila, you get the goods.
>
> ...BUT...
>
> How many new users would EVER get that far?  And, most importantly, how 
> many people would know how to look at the search results, know enough to 
> adapt the resulting technique for formulating a syntactically correct 
> Google search, and then execute it?  (Scroll down to see my guess at the 
> answer.)
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> (zero.)
>
>
> Boys and girls, if we bury our "How to Search the Archives" instructions a 
> bajillion levels deep, it's not really fair to criticize people for not 
> finding them and not following them.  We can't go around saying "RTFM" 
> when it's not in the FM.
>
> Here are some suggestions:
>
> 1) Let's provide a modified example of Matt's instructions above on the VV 
> sign-up page.  Something like: "Welcome to Virtual Vairs.  VV was started 
> in 1994(?) to discuss all things related to Corvairs.  Before posting, you 
> may wish to use Google to search the VV archives to see if your question 
> has already been discussed.  One effective search method involves starting 
> Google in your browser, entering "<my topic> site:www.vv.corvair.org" as 
> your search, and then reading through the results.  In the above, replace 
> '<my topic>' with whatever you're interested in learning about (e.g., seat 
> belts, tires, radios, carburetors, brakes, etc.)."
>
> 2) Even better, let's put that nifty search feature that's located at 
> http://www.vv.corvair.org/archive.htm on the SIGNUP SCREEN
> and on the screen that's shown when the archives link is clicked.
>
> 3) And, if there truly are instructions for searching the Archives four 
> different ways, let's put those on the archives page itself, instead of 
> the lame little "You can get more information about this list" link.
>
> Jon W., if you're still reading, I think you blew it.  In the 3 
> suggestions above, I used a variant of "the royal 'we'" (i.e., "let's"). 
> Was that so offensive?  Did you even notice?  I just wrote "I think you 
> blew it", not because you blew up at Matt for using the word 'we', but 
> because this list is patrolled by about 700 of the most knowledgeable 
> Corvair guys on the planet.  The "been there, done that" factor is off the 
> charts.  Sitting alone in your garage and turning a wrench with no one 
> around to bounce ideas off isn't going to get you there faster or more 
> enjoyably.
>
> I'm among the most pathetic amateurs on the planet compared to some of 
> these guys.  One time, I had to ask: "How do you remove an ignition switch 
> on a late model when the instructions in the shop manual don't work?"  It 
> turns out that the 1965 shop manual instructions are reprinted from the 
> Early shop manuals and there's a key difference not reflected in the 
> steps.  These guys knew it and I had 4 helpful, step-by-step replies 
> within 2 hours.  I had 10 total answers before 24 hours had passed.  I 
> know you won't believe me, but you won't find more generous, patient, and 
> knowledgeable people anywhere else.  Yes, some of the list members can get 
> irascible at times, and some people can act like d*ckheads, but so be it. 
> There are d*ckheads in all walks of life.  (BTW: Matt isn't one of them. 
> He's one of the generous ones.)
>
> Here's my suggestion: Go into lurk mode for awhile.  Experiment with 
> Matt's technique for using Google to search the archives.  Work on your 
> Corvair.  And, when you get stuck with some practical problem that you 
> can't figure out, just ask.  Half a dozen guys will help you.
>
> They'll do it because that's what they do.
>
> Steven "been on this list for 13+ years and wishes he could put back a
> hundredth of what he's gotten out of it" Serenska
>
> '65 Monza Convertible, 110/4
> '66 Corsa Coupe, 140/4
>
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