<VV> Missing FC's HELP!!!!!
David Newell
chevrobilia at yahoo.com
Sat Mar 4 00:04:04 EST 2017
Hi Steve,
Yes, the new figures destroy the individual model totals for '63 and raise the 63 FC total to 3,141 compared to the numbers that I received in 1971 from Chevrolet. But the new figures equal the combined ending serial number totals for both plants.
I think you'll find that the new figures will line up better with the models in your registry. They won't affect the plant to plant ratio though.
You're so right...the rust worm has no doubt had a big effect on the survivor's plant ratio :-(
Dave
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 3/3/17, Steve Spilatro <spilatrs at marietta.edu> wrote:
Subject: Re: <VV> Missing FC's HELP!!!!!
To: "David Newell" <chevrobilia at yahoo.com>
Cc: "ral1963" <ral1963 at comcast.net>, "virtualvairs" <VirtualVairs at corvair.org>, "Matt Nall" <patiomatt at aol.com>, "Mike McGowan" <mcvair at sbcglobal.net>, "Rod Murray" <rmurray at pittsburghpenguins.com>, "ebittman" <ebittman at tampabay.rr.com>, "corsa" <corsa at corvair.org>, "kentsu" <kentsu at corvairkid.com>, "airvair" <airvair at earthlink.net>, "Bill Hubbell" <whubbell at umich.edu>, "Bob Helt" <BobHelt at aol.com>, "rwmarlow" <rwmarlow at comcast.net>, corsa at cox.net
Date: Friday, March 3, 2017, 7:43 PM
Dave,
Does the corrected numbers you have include any major
revisions to the annual FC model production numbers? I
have been intrigued by the significant discrepancy between
the percentages of different models among remaining FCs (in
the registry) vs the original production numbers, but have
assumed this is a consequence of preferences among
enthusiasts as to which FCs were preserved (e.g., great
preferences for Rampsides).
btw: The FC registry currently includes about 825 vehicles
although only 18% are Flint assemblies (vs 38% originally).
I have attributed this to shipment of Flint vehicles
preferentially to east coast / rust-belt states.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Newell" <chevrobilia at yahoo.com>
To: "ral1963" <ral1963 at comcast.net>,
"David Newell" <chevrobilia at yahoo.com>,
"virtualvairs" <VirtualVairs at corvair.org>
Cc: "Steve Spilatro" <spilatrs at marietta.edu>,
"Matt Nall" <patiomatt at aol.com>,
"Mike McGowan" <mcvair at sbcglobal.net>,
"Rod Murray" <rmurray at pittsburghpenguins.com>,
"ebittman" <ebittman at tampabay.rr.com>,
"corsa" <corsa at corvair.org>,
"kentsu" <kentsu at corvairkid.com>,
"airvair" <airvair at earthlink.net>,
"Bill Hubbell" <whubbell at umich.edu>,
"Bob Helt" <BobHelt at aol.com>,
"rwmarlow" <rwmarlow at comcast.net>,
corsa at cox.net
Sent: Friday, March 3, 2017 10:17:54 PM
Subject: RE: <VV> Missing FC's
HELP!!!!!
Hi,
Yes, I believe that single 8/63 Flint FC is correct. The
Flint & St Louis ending serials added together exactly
match the sum of the FC model totals in the latest internal
Chevy docs I have.
Dave
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 3/3/17, Rick Loving <ral1963 at comcast.net>
wrote:
Subject: RE: <VV> Missing FC's
HELP!!!!!
To: "'Rick Loving'" <ral1963 at comcast.net>,
"'David Newell'" <chevrobilia at yahoo.com>,
VirtualVairs at corvair.org
Cc: spilatrs at marietta.edu,
"'Matt Nall'" <patiomatt at aol.com>,
"'Mike McGowan'" <mcvair at sbcglobal.net>,
"'Rod Murray'" <rmurray at pittsburghpenguins.com>,
"'Ed Bittman'" <ebittman at tampabay.rr.com>,
"'Harry Jensen'" <corsa at corvair.org>,
"'Kent Sullivan'" <kentsu at corvairkid.com>,
"'Mark Corbin'" <airvair at earthlink.net>,
"'Bill Hubbell'" <whubbell at umich.edu>,
"'Bob Helt'" <BobHelt at aol.com>,
"'Bob Marlow'" <rwmarlow at comcast.net>,
spilatrs at marietta.edu,
corsa at cox.net
Date: Friday, March 3, 2017, 5:28 PM
Please clear one thing
up....
In the VIN
chart....1963 for FLINT Plant, the Month end VIN
for July shows 115210 and the last VIN for AUG as
115211....
So...the last day of
July 1963, Wednesday the 31st the 2nd to
last 63 FC was built.......then sometime after
midnight and
on Thursday Aug 1st 1963...the last 63 FC rolled off the
line.... creating
the "only" FC built in the month of Aug
1963.....
or is there an error
in the VIN's as
listed....
Rick
From: Rick Loving
[mailto:ral1963 at comcast.net]
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2017 7:08
PM
To: 'David Newell';
'VirtualVairs at corvair.org'
Cc: 'spilatrs at marietta.edu';
'Matt Nall';
'Mike McGowan'; 'Rod Murray'; 'Ed
Bittman'; 'Harry Jensen'; 'Kent
Sullivan';
'Mark Corbin'; 'Bill Hubbell'; 'Bob
Helt'; 'Bob Marlow';
'spilatrs at marietta.edu';
'corsa at cox.net'
Subject: RE: <VV>
Missing FC's HELP!!!!!
I am glad we are all on the same page in
wanting to get the most
accuate numbers out there, updating our information, and
preserving the Corvair
history.
I am re-vamping my
original email as we kmow what is
amiss...
In regards to the
FC only 1961 (13 trucks) and 63 (3141 trucks)
are unaccounted for in the "Model Year breakdown"
For 61 it accefts all 4 types
and for 63 only 3 models are affected.
Since I do not have the details
that Dave does, I mearly determined what the % to toal
each
body stayle was and
extrapolated the "new" totals using the same
percentages based on the "correct"
production totals from the VIN charts.
This changed the follow model
breakdown by the units highlighted in RED..and added the
missing 3154 units to
the Total FC production counts.
Hopefully Dave will make adjustments
where possible based on his documentation.
For the car
production...
60,61,62,63,64, & 67 are afftected... I
noted that the
defferences in 67 were directly related to the CDK units
and
started working
towards calculating "how" the other years exprts
could have affected the Model
breakdone.
I had a
hypothisis that the only affcted models would be the 4
door Sedans in the year as they were the expoted
models...I
theorized that the
numbers somehow got double counted...where they were
included in the original
model counts, and then rolled back in from a list showing
the exports. It
was the only way the "production" numbers could be
counted higher than the VIN
totals....
So I made the
similair adjustements to the sedan Model units
based on the variences between the overal production and
the
VIN
production. All changes to "pre-existing totals are
hightlighted in
RED...
All in all only a
few models from each year were affected....I am
curious as to how my exercise mirrors the actual numbers
from.....
I have
attcahed my spread sheet with what I calculated...(and
pasted it here
below)....
NEW SUGGEST MODEL
#'s TOTAL
1,827,933
USA
1,779,006
CANADA
48,927
YEARMODEL TOTALS 1960Production
248,684
1960569
46,155
1960769
136,152
1960527
14,628
1960727
36,562
1960927
11,926
1960CAN
3,261 * Adjusted Sedan
counts down 4,584
for Export
Varience1961Production
334,412
1961535
5,591
1961735
20,451
1961569
18,009
1961769
50,462
1961969
33,002
1961527
16,857
196119611961727
24,786 REVISED % T
TTLORIGINAL % to
TOTAL1961927
109,945
47,557 % to total
47,570 % to
total1961R1206
18,493
18,489 0.389
18,493
0.3891961R1205
15,812
15,806 0.332
15,812
0.3321961R1254
10,790
10,787 0.227
10,790
0.2271961R1244
2,475
2,475 0.052
2,475
0.0521961CAN
7,739 * Adjusted Sedan
counts down 2,972
for Export Varience*
Adjusted FC counts up for 13
missing
units1962Production
334,205
1962735
3,716
1962935
2,362
1962569
-
1962769
34,468
1962969
47,159
1962527
16,245
1962727
18,474
1962927
144,844
1962967
13,995 1962927
S
6,894 1962967
S
2,574
1962R1206
18,007
1962R1205
13,491
1962R1254
4,102
1962R1244
369
1962CAN
7,505 * Adjusted Sedan
counts down 1,800
for Export
Varience1963Production
291,101
1963569
-
1963769
20,456
1963969
30,889
1963527
16,680
1963727
12,378
1963927
117,917
1963967
36,693 196319631963927
S
11,627 REVISED % T
TTLORIGINAL % to TOTAL1963967
S
7,472
30,109 % to total
26,968 % to
total1963R1206
15,364
15,364 0.5103
13,761
0.51031963R1205
12,461
12,461 0.4139
11,161
0.41391963R1254
2,284
2,284 0.0759
2,046
0.07591963CAN
6,880 * Adjusted Sedan
counts down 459
for Export Varience*
Adjusted FC counts up for 3,141
missing
units1964Production
214,003
1964569
-
1964769
16,055
1964969
21,686
1964527
22,968
1964727
-
1964927
88,440
1964967
31,045
1964627
6,480
1964667
4,761
1964R1206
6,201
1964R1205
8,147
1964R1254
851
1964CAN
7,369 * Adjusted Sedan
counts down 480
for Export
Varience1965Production
247,092
1965139
17,560
1965539
37,157
1965137
36,747
1965537
88,954
1965567
26,466
1965737
20,291
1965767
8,353
1965R1206
1,528
1965CAN
10,036
1966Production
109,880
1966139
8,779
1966539
12,497
1966137
24,045
1966537
37,605
1966567
10,345
1966737
7,330
1966767
3,142
1966CAN
6,137
1967Production
27,157
1967139
2,911
1967539
3,109
1967137
9,257
1967537
9,771
1967567
2,109 * Adjusted Sedan
counts down 96 for
Export
Varience1968Production
15,399
1968137
7,206
1968537
6,807
1968567
1,386
1969Production
6,000
1969137
2,762
1969537
2,717
1969567
521 Exported
Corvairs 11,589(34,875 total
exported Corvairs from
1960-1969) BelgiumDenmarkMexicoS
AfricaSwissS
AmericaTOTALS19601,8411711,3834056303844,81419616161046337205543452,9721962598184601844291111,80019633370001220459196421600026404801965336000224056019662640001440408196748000480961968000000019690000000TOTALS4,2562932,4761,3092,41584011,589 *All
Estimated to meet VIN Productin Totals
-----Original Message-----
From: David Newell [mailto:chevrobilia at yahoo.com]
Sent:
Friday, March 03, 2017 4:57 AM
To:
VirtualVairs at corvair.org
Cc:
ral1963 at comcast.net;
spilatrs at marietta.edu;
Matt Nall; Mike
McGowan; Rod Murray;
Ed Bittman; Harry Jensen; Kent Sullivan; Mark Corbin; Bill
Hubbell; Bob Helt;
Bob Marlow
Subject: RE: <VV> Missing
FC's HELP!!!!!
Rick,
Matt,
Rod and all...
Thanks for bringing up this
important and long overdue issue.
Your sharp eye, Rick, couldn't have had better timing
for taming those pesky FC
numbers. Mike McGowan and I've been planning an article
for the Communique this
year on just this subject. It's one of four pieces
I'm determined to do before
year's end or whenever Mike and Harry retire. Which is
when I'll bow out, thank
you.
The FC production
numbers by year and model -- as published in The
Corvair Decade and everywhere else Corvair FC numbers have
ever been printed --
go back to the early 1970s when all we had were car
numbers.
The FC figures were
a huge gap in our knowledge. I'm the guilty party who
requested them, plus the
62-63 Spyder RPO and 65-66 L87 turbo numbers, from
Chevrolet. They've been
reprinted a jillion times at least. We had no reason to
question 'em, nor did
anyone else.
In 1988 I came
across the month-ending serial numbers for
each plant. They were a revelation, but like you I caught
the 1963 FC
inconsistencies and wrote a memo to file that flagged them
as a possible
"breakthrough" in numbers research. But at the
time there was nothing else to
check the plant totals against, much less cross check the
original numbers
supplied by Chevy.
Eventually holy grail docs appeared, confirming
that
the Flint and St Louis totals were correct and just how
faulty some of the
original Chevy-supplied figures were. In my article I'll
show how that was done
and how the process also corrected the '63 model
production numbers.
Your
observation about the 13 FC anomaly in '61 is well taken
and right on. But
there's major goof besides that one. It'll surprise
and probably dismay you, in
that it's taken me so damn long to write about it. But
maybe you'll all forgive
this numbers weary old fart with failing eyesight and way
too much historical
trivia to ever have time to explore.
So....help has arrived. I'll fix it.
But everyone has to get on board and spread the new
figures.
Rick, your
questioning the old figures now should help validate the
new
numbers. I've been
worried that some folks might not easily embrace the
corrections. We'll need to
spread the word so that whenever anyone edits or reprints
what they've
previously published (with the old numbers) they can fix
it.
It should be
"official" CORSA policy, pointed out on the web
site, but I know that's
expecting too much.
Here's to all of us who care about
numerical
accuracy. And truth in general. Somebody's gotta get it
right, 'eh?
:-)
Dave Newell
History Editor, CORSA Communique
--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 3/2/17,
Rod Murray <rmurray at pittsburghpenguins.com>
wrote:
Subject:
RE: <VV> Missing FC's HELP!!!!!
To:
"ral1963 at comcast.net"
<ral1963 at comcast.net>,
"spilatrs at marietta.edu"
<spilatrs at marietta.edu>,
"chevrobilia at yahoo.com"
<chevrobilia at yahoo.com>
Cc:
"Matt Nall"
<patiomatt at aol.com>
Date: Thursday,
March 2, 2017, 9:41
AM
Hey rick,
Seems like Steve Spilatro
and dave newell
might be good sources to check in with.
Good luck w/ the
project...count me amongst those that appreciate
thorough
fact-finding and
numerical accuracy.
-
rod
Rod
Murray
Senior Director, Production and
Game Presentation
Pittsburgh Penguins rmurray at pittsburghpenguins.com
Office:
412-255-1906 | Fax: 412-255-1980 | Mobile:
412-719-3449
PPG
Paints Arena | 1001 Fifth Avenue | Pittsburgh, PA
|
15219
-----Original
Message-----
From: VirtualVairs
[mailto:virtualvairs-bounces at corvair.org]
On
Behalf Of Matt Nall via VirtualVairs
Sent:
Thursday, March 02, 2017
11:07 AM
To: virtualvairs at corvair.org
Subject: <VV>
Missing FC's HELP!!!!!
Rick Loving / Vair
Historian needs
some help!!
His email is
Does
anyone know the "oldest" published model numbers
for Corvair Forward
Control trucks (and where those totals came from?)?
When you
look at all the historical numbers for 1963 FC
production
there is a 3,141
variance between what has been reported
historically...and
I want to fix
it!!!
...according to the
Corvair Decade (not sure where Tony
pulled them) and repeated across dozens of publications
and
websites...here is what FC Model breakdown for 1963 has
been
reported.
1963 Corvan =
11,161 Units
1963 Greenbriar =
13,761 Units
1963 Rampside = 2,046
Units
___________________________
1963 Total Model Breakdown =
26,968
Here is the
issue,
According to GM documents, 1963
plant production at St Louis and Flint for Corvair
FC's was as
follows..
1963 Flint =
15,211 (Last VIN built)
1963 St
Louis = 14,898 (Last VIN built)
_______________________________________
1963 Total VIN Production =
30,109
So we have 3,141
Corvair FC's NOT accounted for in the
Model breakdown?
Since
FC's don't really have a "Body number"
listed on the Fisher Tag like cars...can anyone think of
a
way to
accurately "correct" the production by model
information?
Was the
original "model" numbers derived from a %
built?
Summary...
1961 Model breakdown matches
VIN
totals exactly at 47,557
1962 Model
breakdown matches VIN totals close
at 47,557 model vs 14,570 by VIN (13 more reported by
Model)
1962 Model
breakdown is off by 3,141...and needs to be
revised...
1964 Model
breakdown matches VIN totals exactly at
15,199
1965 Model breakdown matches VIN
totals exactly at
1,528
Thoughts?
ral1963 at comcast.net
_______________________________________________
This message was sent
by the VirtualVairs mailing list, all copyrights are the
property of the
writer, please attribute properly. For help, mailto:vv-help at corvair.org
This list
sponsored by the Corvair Society of America, http://www.corvair.org/
Post messages to:
VirtualVairs at corvair.org
Change your options: http://www.vv.corvair.org/mailman/options/virtualvairs
Archives:
http://www.vv.corvair.org/archive.htm
_______________________________________________
More information about the VirtualVairs
mailing list