<VV> Missing FC's HELP!!!!!

David Newell chevrobilia at yahoo.com
Sat Mar 4 00:04:04 EST 2017


Hi Steve,
Yes, the new figures destroy the individual model totals for '63 and raise the 63 FC total to 3,141 compared to the numbers that I received in 1971 from Chevrolet. But the new figures equal the combined ending serial number totals for both plants.

I think you'll find that the new figures will line up better with the models in your registry. They won't affect the plant to plant ratio though. 

You're so right...the rust worm has no doubt had a big effect on the survivor's plant ratio :-(

Dave

--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 3/3/17, Steve Spilatro <spilatrs at marietta.edu> wrote:

 Subject: Re: <VV> Missing FC's     HELP!!!!!
 To: "David Newell" <chevrobilia at yahoo.com>
 Cc: "ral1963" <ral1963 at comcast.net>, "virtualvairs" <VirtualVairs at corvair.org>, "Matt Nall" <patiomatt at aol.com>, "Mike McGowan" <mcvair at sbcglobal.net>, "Rod Murray" <rmurray at pittsburghpenguins.com>, "ebittman" <ebittman at tampabay.rr.com>, "corsa" <corsa at corvair.org>, "kentsu" <kentsu at corvairkid.com>, "airvair" <airvair at earthlink.net>, "Bill Hubbell" <whubbell at umich.edu>, "Bob Helt" <BobHelt at aol.com>, "rwmarlow" <rwmarlow at comcast.net>, corsa at cox.net
 Date: Friday, March 3, 2017, 7:43 PM
 
 Dave,
 Does the corrected numbers you have include any major
 revisions to the annual FC model production numbers?  I
 have been intrigued by the significant discrepancy between
 the percentages of different models among remaining FCs (in
 the registry) vs the original production numbers, but have
 assumed this is a consequence of preferences among
 enthusiasts as to which FCs were preserved (e.g., great
 preferences for Rampsides).  
 
 btw: The FC registry currently includes about 825 vehicles
 although only 18% are Flint assemblies (vs 38% originally).
 I have attributed this to shipment of Flint vehicles
 preferentially to east coast / rust-belt states.
 Steve
 
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "David Newell" <chevrobilia at yahoo.com>
 To: "ral1963" <ral1963 at comcast.net>,
 "David Newell" <chevrobilia at yahoo.com>,
 "virtualvairs" <VirtualVairs at corvair.org>
 Cc: "Steve Spilatro" <spilatrs at marietta.edu>,
 "Matt Nall" <patiomatt at aol.com>,
 "Mike McGowan" <mcvair at sbcglobal.net>,
 "Rod Murray" <rmurray at pittsburghpenguins.com>,
 "ebittman" <ebittman at tampabay.rr.com>,
 "corsa" <corsa at corvair.org>,
 "kentsu" <kentsu at corvairkid.com>,
 "airvair" <airvair at earthlink.net>,
 "Bill Hubbell" <whubbell at umich.edu>,
 "Bob Helt" <BobHelt at aol.com>,
 "rwmarlow" <rwmarlow at comcast.net>,
 corsa at cox.net
 Sent: Friday, March 3, 2017 10:17:54 PM
 Subject: RE: <VV> Missing FC's 
    HELP!!!!!
 
 Hi,
 Yes, I believe that single 8/63 Flint FC is correct. The
 Flint & St Louis ending serials added together exactly
 match the sum of the FC model totals in the latest internal
 Chevy docs I have.
 Dave
 
 --------------------------------------------
 On Fri, 3/3/17, Rick Loving <ral1963 at comcast.net>
 wrote:
 
  Subject: RE: <VV> Missing FC's 
    HELP!!!!!
  To: "'Rick Loving'" <ral1963 at comcast.net>,
 "'David Newell'" <chevrobilia at yahoo.com>,
 VirtualVairs at corvair.org
  Cc: spilatrs at marietta.edu,
 "'Matt Nall'" <patiomatt at aol.com>,
 "'Mike McGowan'" <mcvair at sbcglobal.net>,
 "'Rod Murray'" <rmurray at pittsburghpenguins.com>,
 "'Ed Bittman'" <ebittman at tampabay.rr.com>,
 "'Harry Jensen'" <corsa at corvair.org>,
 "'Kent Sullivan'" <kentsu at corvairkid.com>,
 "'Mark Corbin'" <airvair at earthlink.net>,
 "'Bill Hubbell'" <whubbell at umich.edu>,
 "'Bob Helt'" <BobHelt at aol.com>,
 "'Bob Marlow'" <rwmarlow at comcast.net>,
 spilatrs at marietta.edu,
 corsa at cox.net
  Date: Friday, March 3, 2017, 5:28 PM
  
  
  Please clear one thing
  up....
   
  In the VIN
  chart....1963 for FLINT Plant, the Month end VIN 
  for July shows 115210 and the last VIN for AUG as
  115211....
   
  So...the last day of
  July 1963, Wednesday the 31st the 2nd to 
  last 63 FC was built.......then sometime after
 midnight and
  
  on Thursday Aug 1st 1963...the last 63 FC rolled off the
  line.... creating 
  the "only" FC built in the month of Aug
  1963..... 
   
  or is there an error
  in the VIN's as 
  listed....
  
   
  Rick
   
   
  
  
  
  
  From: Rick Loving
  [mailto:ral1963 at comcast.net]
 
  
  Sent: Friday, March 03, 2017 7:08
  PM
  To: 'David Newell'; 
  'VirtualVairs at corvair.org'
  Cc: 'spilatrs at marietta.edu';
  'Matt Nall'; 
  'Mike McGowan'; 'Rod Murray'; 'Ed
  Bittman'; 'Harry Jensen'; 'Kent
  Sullivan'; 
  'Mark Corbin'; 'Bill Hubbell'; 'Bob
  Helt'; 'Bob Marlow'; 
  'spilatrs at marietta.edu';
 'corsa at cox.net'
  Subject: RE: <VV> 
  Missing FC's HELP!!!!!
  
  
  
  I am glad we are all on the same page in
  wanting to get the most 
  accuate numbers out there, updating our information, and
  preserving the Corvair 
  history.
  
  I am re-vamping my
  original email as we kmow what is 
  amiss...
  
  In regards to the
  FC only 1961 (13 trucks) and 63 (3141 trucks) 
  are unaccounted for in the "Model Year breakdown"
  For 61 it accefts all 4 types 
  and for 63 only 3 models are affected.
  
  Since I do not have the details 
  that Dave does, I mearly determined what the % to toal
 each
  body stayle was and 
  extrapolated the "new" totals using the same
  percentages based on the "correct" 
  production totals from the VIN charts.
  
  This changed the follow model 
  breakdown by the units highlighted in RED..and added the
  missing 3154 units to 
  the Total FC production counts.
  
  Hopefully Dave will make adjustments 
  where possible based on his documentation.
  
  For the car 
  production...
  
  60,61,62,63,64, & 67 are afftected... I
  noted that the 
  defferences in 67 were directly related to the CDK units
 and
  started working 
  towards calculating "how" the other years exprts
  could have affected the Model 
  breakdone.
  
  I had a
  hypothisis that the only affcted models would be the 4 
  door Sedans in the year as they were the expoted
 models...I
  theorized that the 
  numbers somehow got double counted...where they were
  included in the original 
  model counts, and then rolled back in from a list showing
  the exports.  It 
  was the only way the "production" numbers could be
  counted higher than the VIN 
  totals....
  
  So I made the
  similair adjustements to the sedan Model units 
  based on the variences between the overal production and
 the
  VIN 
  production.  All changes to "pre-existing totals are
  hightlighted in 
  RED...
  
  All in all only a
  few models from each year were affected....I am 
  curious as to how my exercise mirrors the actual numbers
  from.....
  
  I have 
  attcahed my spread sheet with what I calculated...(and
  pasted it here 
  below)....   
   
  
   NEW SUGGEST   MODEL
 #'s TOTAL                      
        1,827,933
 USA                      
        1,779,006
 CANADA                           
  
        48,927
 YEARMODEL TOTALS 1960Production                         
 
        248,684
 1960569                          
  
        46,155
 1960769                         
        136,152
 1960527                           
  
        14,628
 1960727                           
  
        36,562
 1960927                           
  
        11,926
 1960CAN                             
  
        3,261 * Adjusted Sedan
 counts down 4,584 
        for Export
 Varience1961Production                         
 
        334,412
 1961535                             
  
        5,591
 1961735                           
  
        20,451
 1961569                          
  
        18,009
 1961769                          
  
        50,462
 1961969                          
  
        33,002
 1961527                           
  
        16,857
 196119611961727                           
  
        24,786 REVISED % T
 TTLORIGINAL % to
 TOTAL1961927                         
 
        109,945          
        47,557 % to total     
        47,570 % to
 total1961R1206                          
  
        18,493          
        18,489 0.389     
        18,493
 0.3891961R1205                          
  
        15,812          
        15,806 0.332     
        15,812
 0.3321961R1254                          
  
        10,790          
        10,787 0.227     
        10,790
 0.2271961R1244                             
  
        2,475            
        2,475 0.052        
        2,475
 0.0521961CAN                             
  
        7,739 * Adjusted Sedan
 counts down 2,972 
        for Export Varience*
 Adjusted FC counts up for 13 
        missing
 units1962Production                         
 
        334,205
 1962735                             
  
        3,716
 1962935                             
  
        2,362
 1962569                                    
  
        -  
 1962769                          
  
        34,468
 1962969                          
  
        47,159
 1962527                           
  
        16,245
 1962727                           
  
        18,474
 1962927                          
        144,844
 1962967                           
  
        13,995 1962927
 S                             
  
        6,894 1962967
 S                             
  
        2,574
 1962R1206                           
  
        18,007
 1962R1205                           
  
        13,491
 1962R1254                             
  
        4,102
 1962R1244                                 
  
        369
 1962CAN                             
  
        7,505 * Adjusted Sedan
 counts down 1,800 
        for Export
 Varience1963Production                         
 
        291,101
 1963569                                    
  
        -  
 1963769                          
  
        20,456
 1963969                          
  
        30,889
 1963527                           
  
        16,680
 1963727                           
  
        12,378
 1963927                          
        117,917
 1963967                           
  
        36,693 196319631963927
 S                           
  
        11,627 REVISED % T
 TTLORIGINAL % to TOTAL1963967
 S                             
  
        7,472          
        30,109 % to total     
        26,968 % to
 total1963R1206                          
  
        15,364          
        15,364 0.5103     
        13,761
 0.51031963R1205                          
  
        12,461          
        12,461 0.4139     
        11,161
 0.41391963R1254                             
  
        2,284            
        2,284 0.0759        
        2,046
 0.07591963CAN                             
  
        6,880 * Adjusted Sedan
 counts down 459 
        for Export Varience*
 Adjusted FC counts up for 3,141 
        missing
 units1964Production                         
 
        214,003
 1964569                                    
  
        -  
 1964769                          
  
        16,055
 1964969                          
  
        21,686
 1964527                           
  
        22,968
 1964727                                    
  
        -  
 1964927                           
  
        88,440
 1964967                           
  
        31,045
 1964627                             
  
        6,480
 1964667                             
  
        4,761
 1964R1206                             
  
        6,201
 1964R1205                             
  
        8,147
 1964R1254                                 
  
        851
 1964CAN                             
  
        7,369 * Adjusted Sedan
 counts down 480 
        for Export
 Varience1965Production                         
 
        247,092
 1965139                           
  
        17,560
 1965539                           
  
        37,157
 1965137                           
  
        36,747
 1965537                           
  
        88,954
 1965567                           
  
        26,466
 1965737                           
  
        20,291
 1965767                             
  
        8,353
 1965R1206                             
  
        1,528
 1965CAN                           
  
        10,036
 1966Production                         
 
        109,880
 1966139                             
  
        8,779
 1966539                           
  
        12,497
 1966137                           
  
        24,045
 1966537                           
  
        37,605
 1966567                           
  
        10,345
 1966737                             
  
        7,330
 1966767                             
  
        3,142
 1966CAN                             
  
        6,137
 1967Production                           
  
        27,157
 1967139                             
  
        2,911
 1967539                             
  
        3,109
 1967137                             
  
        9,257
 1967537                             
  
        9,771
 1967567                             
  
        2,109 * Adjusted Sedan
 counts down 96 for 
        Export
 Varience1968Production                           
  
        15,399
 1968137                             
  
        7,206
 1968537                             
  
        6,807
 1968567                             
  
        1,386
 1969Production                             
  
        6,000
 1969137                             
  
        2,762
 1969537                             
  
        2,717
 1969567                                 
  
        521 Exported
 Corvairs 11,589(34,875 total
  exported Corvairs from 
    
    1960-1969)     BelgiumDenmarkMexicoS
 AfricaSwissS
 AmericaTOTALS19601,8411711,3834056303844,81419616161046337205543452,9721962598184601844291111,80019633370001220459196421600026404801965336000224056019662640001440408196748000480961968000000019690000000TOTALS4,2562932,4761,3092,41584011,589    *All
  Estimated to meet VIN Productin Totals   
   
  
  -----Original Message-----
  From: David Newell [mailto:chevrobilia at yahoo.com]
  Sent: 
  Friday, March 03, 2017 4:57 AM
  To:
  VirtualVairs at corvair.org
  Cc: 
  ral1963 at comcast.net;
 spilatrs at marietta.edu;
 Matt Nall; Mike
  McGowan; Rod Murray; 
  Ed Bittman; Harry Jensen; Kent Sullivan; Mark Corbin; Bill
  Hubbell; Bob Helt; 
  Bob Marlow
  Subject: RE: <VV> Missing
  FC's HELP!!!!!
  
  Rick,
  Matt, 
  Rod and all...
  Thanks for bringing up this
  important and long overdue issue. 
  Your sharp eye, Rick, couldn't have had better timing
  for taming those pesky FC 
  numbers. Mike McGowan and I've been planning an article
  for the Communique this 
  year on just this subject. It's one of four pieces
  I'm determined to do before 
  year's end or whenever Mike and Harry retire. Which is
  when I'll bow out, thank 
  you.
  
  The FC production
  numbers by year and model -- as published in The 
  Corvair Decade and everywhere else Corvair FC numbers have
  ever been printed -- 
  go back to the early 1970s when all we had were car
 numbers.
  The FC figures were 
  a huge gap in our knowledge. I'm the guilty party who
  requested them, plus the 
  62-63 Spyder RPO and 65-66 L87 turbo numbers, from
  Chevrolet. They've been 
  reprinted a jillion times at least. We had no reason to
  question 'em, nor did 
  anyone else.
  
  In 1988 I came
  across the month-ending serial numbers for 
  each plant. They were a revelation, but like you I caught
  the 1963 FC 
  inconsistencies and wrote a memo to file that flagged them
  as a possible 
  "breakthrough" in numbers research. But at the
  time there was nothing else to 
  check the plant totals against, much less cross check the
  original numbers 
  supplied by Chevy.
  
  Eventually holy grail docs appeared, confirming
  that 
  the Flint and St Louis totals were correct and just how
  faulty some of the 
  original Chevy-supplied figures were. In my article I'll
  show how that was done 
  and how the process also corrected the '63 model
  production numbers.
  
  Your 
  observation about the 13 FC anomaly in '61 is well taken
  and right on. But 
  there's major goof besides that one. It'll surprise
  and probably dismay you, in 
  that it's taken me so damn long to write about it. But
  maybe you'll all forgive 
  this numbers weary old fart with failing eyesight and way
  too much historical 
  trivia to ever have time to explore.
  
  So....help has arrived. I'll fix it. 
  But everyone has to get on board and spread the new
 figures.
  Rick, your 
  questioning the old figures now should help validate the
 new
  numbers. I've been 
  worried that some folks might not easily embrace the
  corrections. We'll need to 
  spread the word so that whenever anyone edits or reprints
  what they've 
  previously published (with the old numbers) they can fix
 it.
  It should be 
  "official" CORSA policy, pointed out on the web
  site, but I know that's 
  expecting too much.
  
  Here's to all of us who care about
  numerical 
  accuracy. And truth in general. Somebody's gotta get it
  right, 'eh? 
  :-)
  
  Dave Newell
  History Editor, CORSA Communique  
   
  
  --------------------------------------------
  On Thu, 3/2/17, 
  Rod Murray <rmurray at pittsburghpenguins.com>
 wrote:
  
   Subject: 
  RE: <VV> Missing FC's     HELP!!!!!
   To: 
  "ral1963 at comcast.net"
 <ral1963 at comcast.net>,
  "spilatrs at marietta.edu"
 
  <spilatrs at marietta.edu>,
  "chevrobilia at yahoo.com"
 
  <chevrobilia at yahoo.com>
   Cc:
  "Matt Nall" 
  <patiomatt at aol.com>
   Date: Thursday,
  March 2, 2017, 9:41 
  AM
  
   Hey rick,
  
   Seems like Steve Spilatro
  and dave newell 
  might be good  sources to check in with.
  
   Good luck w/ the 
  project...count me amongst those that  appreciate
 thorough
  fact-finding and 
  numerical accuracy.
  
   -
  rod
  
  
   Rod 
  Murray
   Senior Director, Production and
  Game Presentation  
  Pittsburgh Penguins  rmurray at pittsburghpenguins.com
   Office: 
  412-255-1906 | Fax: 412-255-1980 | Mobile:
   412-719-3449
   PPG 
  Paints Arena | 1001 Fifth Avenue | Pittsburgh, PA 
  |
   15219
   -----Original
  Message-----
   From: VirtualVairs 
  [mailto:virtualvairs-bounces at corvair.org]
   On 
  Behalf Of Matt Nall via VirtualVairs
   Sent:
  Thursday, March 02, 2017 
  11:07 AM
   To: virtualvairs at corvair.org
   Subject: <VV> 
  Missing FC's HELP!!!!!
  
  
   Rick Loving / Vair
  Historian  needs 
  some help!!
  
  
   His email is
  
  
  
  
  
  
   Does 
  anyone know the "oldest" published model numbers
  for  Corvair Forward 
  Control trucks (and where those totals came  from?)?
  
   When you 
  look at all the historical numbers for 1963 FC 
 production
  there is a 3,141 
  variance between what has been  reported
 historically...and
  I want to fix 
  it!!!
  
   ...according to the
  Corvair Decade (not sure where Tony  
  pulled them) and repeated across dozens of publications
  and  
  websites...here is what FC Model breakdown for 1963 has
  been  
  reported.
  
   1963 Corvan =
  11,161 Units
   1963 Greenbriar = 
  13,761 Units
   1963 Rampside = 2,046 
  Units
   ___________________________
   1963 Total Model Breakdown = 
  26,968
  
   Here is the
  issue,
   According to GM documents, 1963 
  plant production at St Louis  and Flint for Corvair
  FC's was as 
  follows..
  
   1963 Flint =
  15,211 (Last VIN built)
   1963 St 
  Louis = 14,898 (Last VIN built)  
  _______________________________________
   1963 Total VIN Production = 
  30,109
  
   So we have 3,141
  Corvair FC's NOT accounted for in the 
  Model  breakdown?
  
   Since
  FC's don't really have a "Body number" 
  listed on the  Fisher Tag like cars...can anyone think of
 a
  way to  
  accurately "correct" the production by model
  information?
  
   Was the 
  original "model" numbers derived from a % 
  built?
  
   Summary...
  
   1961 Model breakdown matches
  VIN 
  totals exactly at 47,557
   1962 Model
  breakdown matches VIN totals close 
  at 47,557  model vs 14,570 by VIN (13 more reported by 
  Model)
  
   1962 Model
  breakdown is off by 3,141...and needs to be  
  revised...
  
   1964 Model
  breakdown matches VIN totals exactly at 
  15,199
   1965 Model breakdown matches VIN
  totals exactly at 
  1,528
  
   Thoughts?
  
  
  
  
  
  
   ral1963 at comcast.net
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
    
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