<VV> Freeing a stuck motor.

[Charles Sadek]

Wow! On this one, the oxidation between the aluminum heads/block and cast
iron cylinders holds it so tight, one cannot separate anything. I am
sacrificing cylinders and rods. 

The "hit and miss" guys put the whole cast block in a solution and randomly
walking by, vibrate the casting with a hammer. Takes up to six months, they
report....

-----Original Message-----
From: VirtualVairs [mailto:virtualvairs-bounces at corvair.org] On Behalf Of
Hugo Miller via VirtualVairs
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2018 10:16 PM
To: virtualvairs at corvair.org
Subject: Re: <VV> Freeing a stuck motor.

On a normal engine I would expect to find rings stuck to the bores, and 
maybe rust in the cylinder which stiffens everything up, but when you 
get wrist pins seizing that sounds a bit extreme. In theory they would 
have been coated in oil when the engine last ran and then just sat 
there. Unless it got very hot & the pistons seized in the bores & the 
oil on the wrist pins evaporated with the heat. Who knows?
I recently freed off a 1917 American LaFrance engine - 4 cylinder 9.5. 
litre, 2 pairs of T head cylinders. Out of the two stuck pistons, one 
freed up with a bang in the bearing press after soaking in oil for a 
couple of weeks. With the other, I was gently pumping the handle on the 
bearing press and stuff started falling out of the bottom of the bore! 
No resistance at all. Turns out mice had been living in the bore and the 
mouse urine seems to have just rotted the (cast iron) piston crown. It 
had all the strength of strong cardboard!


On 2018-06-20 11:47, Charles Sadek via VirtualVairs wrote:
> Hugo, I have one that was in a dune buggy left outside year-around in
> Illinois, where heat is hot and cold is, well, cold. No carbs,
> uncovered.. Water, snow, etc.. Cylinders are corroded to the heads -
> and block. Head bolts are corroded into head holes. All need 
> replacing
> and most will need to be machined out at block end. Diff or trans is
> frozen-brakes though rusted and worthless are not frozen engaged.
> Crank, cam, block, heads, distributor maybe rear housing are
> rebuildable. Tempted to trash entire thing but trying to cut
> cylinders, rods, whatever in half so heads can come off, rods can be
> unbolted. Address each end of cylinders individually. Heads may be
> able to be saved. Don't know. Engine top cover broke when attempting
> to remove it... go figure! Pan is no-name finned aluminum.
> I was hoping to reuse trans, diff, block etc.
>
> Chuck S
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: VirtualVairs [mailto:virtualvairs-bounces at corvair.org] On
> Behalf Of Hugo Miller via VirtualVairs
> Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2018 2:29 PM
> To: virtualvairs at corvair.org
> Subject: Re: <VV> Freeing a stuck motor.
>
> How on earth did it get that bad? Wrist pins also? Did it run right 
> out
> of oil or was it used as a boat anchor?
>
>
> On 2018-06-20 10:44, roboman91324--- via VirtualVairs wrote:
>> Ignacio,
>>
>>
>> I have worked on more than a few motors over the years and some have
>> been seized.  The worst was a turbo motor for my '66 Corsa.
>>
>> First, to explain the comment about the square inches and piston
>> surface area.  If the piston's surface area is 8 square inches and
>> the
>> air pressure is 150 PSI (pounds per square inch) the total force on
>> the head of the piston will be 8 sq. in. x 150 PSI = 1200 pounds of
>> force on the piston.  Assuming all 6 pistons are seized (a good
>> assumption) 1200 pounds will probably not do the job depending on 
>> the
>> severity of the seizure. In addition, you will only have a chance at
>> success if you choose a piston that is approximately in the middle 
>> of
>> its travel in the cylinder.  If the piston is at the top or bottom 
>> of
>> travel, air pressure in the cylinder will have no effect.  The
>> connecting rod bearing journal must be at a right angle to the force
>> applied to allow the piston to have the major torque on the
>> crankshaft
>> and allow the system to move.  Take off the oil pan and/or top cover
>> to see which piston to use.  Matt suggested removing the rockers to
>> guarantee the valves will be seated.  If a valve is even a tiny bit
>> open, the air pressure will escape.
>>
>> Here is my ordeal.
>>
>> I bought the motor to replace an incorrect 140 in my Corsa.  It came
>> from the factory as a Turbo car.  I didn't look at the motor before 
>> I
>> bought it because it was in Chicago and I am in LA.  The numbers on
>> the crankcase indicated it was proper for engine type and date of
>> manufacture for my car.  I trusted the seller because we got 
>> together
>> on the deal here on VV.  I shouldn't have trusted him as it turns
>> out..  Among other things, he claimed the motor spun freely.  Since 
>> I
>> was going to do a complete rebuild anyway, that was fine.  The
>> reality
>> is that I have never seen an engine more solidly seized.
>>
>> I tried the breaker bar that people mentioned.  I tried the breaker
>> bar in combination with a strap wrench on the damper and nothing
>> worked.  I didn't use compressed air.
>>
>> I put the motor on an engine stand and removed the heads, oil pan 
>> and
>> top.  This gave me access to both the top and bottom of the
>> cylinders.  I turned the motor sideways on the stand and squirted
>> different solvents at different times into the tops and bottoms of
>> each cylinder.  Those cylinders facing up got the solvents to the 
>> top
>> of the piston and those facing down got the solvents to the bottom 
>> of
>> the piston.  I let it soak for a day and then turned the motor the
>> other way to get to the tops and bottoms of the other set of
>> pistons.
>> This went on for a couple of weeks without success.
>>
>> I decided to dismantle the engine.  I tried to remove the rod caps 
>> so
>> I could remove each piston and cylinder as an assembly.  Because the
>> engine had seized in exactly the wrong position, I could only get to
>> some of the nuts for the rod caps.  I did remove two piston/cylinder
>> assemblies this way but the remaining four cylinders were still
>> seized.  Because I couldn't get to the remaining nuts with a socket
>> or
>> wrench, I had to resort to using an abrasive wheel.  By the way, 
>> once
>> the two piston/cylinder assemblies were removed, it gave me access 
>> to
>> a couple more nuts through the open holes but even one nut in place
>> on
>> a rod cap is enough to prevent removal.
>>
>> Once I had all six piston/cylinder assemblies out, I had to separate
>> one from the other.  I used my hydraulic press.  With a couple
>> assemblies, it was difficult setting them up on the press because 
>> the
>> wrist pins had seized too and the rods had frozen sideways.  Keep in
>> mind that frozen piston rings are only part of the problem.  Wrist
>> pins, rod bearings and main journal bearings can get stuck too.  I
>> had
>> to push the press to its limit and when the rings released, it
>> sounded
>> like a small caliber pistol shot.  Of course, the pistons and rods
>> were trash but I sent the cylinders off to a vendor to be
>> resurrected.
>>
>> I could bitch about other things the guy who sold me the motor did
>> but those are stories that are not pertinent to seized motors.
>>
>> With all that, I ended up with the proper crankcase for my car,
>> rebored cylinders, a rebuildable turbo and carb, the proper
>> distributor, etc.  Because of the way the seller shipped it, there
>> was
>> damage to other components but nothing that couldn't be fixed or
>> replaced.  All-in-all, even if the seller is a member of VV, I will
>> never buy a motor, car or other significant part remotely unless the
>> individual is truly trusted or someone I trust inspects the unit in
>> question.
>>
>> I hope this helps.
>>
>> Good luck Ignacio
>>
>> Doc
>> '60 Corvette; '61 Rampside; '62 Rampside, '64 Spyder coupe, '65
>> Greenbrier; '66 Canadian Corsa coupe; '67 Nova SS; '68 Camaro 
>> ragtop;
>> '70 3/4 ton Chevy C20 pickup plus a couple other non-Chevy vehicles
>> ... forgive me
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> In a message dated 6/20/2018 5:55:47 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>> virtualvairs-request at corvair.org writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 22:28:11 -0500
>> From: Ignacio Valdes <ivaldes at hal-pc.org>
>> To: Virtual Vairs <virtualvairs at corvair.org>
>> Subject: <VV> Freeing a stuck motor.
>> Message-ID:
>>  
>> <CANPWqJFfZWdREwCz3pegPsrVg=Ywip30zw_v7EJKRN40QmsejQ at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>
>> Hi, I am giving the old college try for a 1964 stuck motor that was
>> given
>> to me for 'free'. It is out of the car on the floor. A 3/4 inch
>> wrench on
>> the harmonic balancer bolt head does not make it budge. The starter
>> is bad.
>> I pulled the plugs and poured a gallon of ATF into the spark plug
>> holes
>> today. How long should I wait and are there any other ways of trying
>> to get
>> it moving other than the bolt head on the harmonic balancer? -- IV
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