<VV> lug nuts / Fuel Leak

Tue Oct 2 17:26:55 EDT 2018

Just when I thought we had all this pretty much settled, we now have another 
mystery - somebody wrote the other day (apologies, can't remember who it 
was!) to say his left side lug nuts came loose on his car. This contrasts 
with my experience of driving 25-odd miles, starting with wheel nuts so 
loose that the noise was mis-diagnosed as a collapsed wheel bearing, and I 
got home without them getting any looser. And that was on a left-hand front 
wheel of a front-wheel drive car with right-hand thread lug nuts. How can 
two identical situations produce such diametrically opposed results?
When this thread started, I thought I had a pretty good understanding of the 
science behind it. But as they say, the more we learn, the less we know!
Did that fuel leak ever get resolved?

-----Original Message----- 
From: Jay Maechtlen via VirtualVairs
Sent: Monday, October 1, 2018 4:50 AM
To: virtualvairs at corvair.org
Subject: Re:  Fuel Leak

Here are links to some discussions on an engineering forum.
You may find them intersting.

https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=57211

On 9/27/2018 11:47 AM, roboman91324--- via VirtualVairs wrote:
> Hugo,
>
>   Thanks for the interesting story and your theory.  I believe we may 
> agree on more than you think.
>   First, a bit of info.  Chrysler products used to have left hand threads 
> on the driver's side wheel lugs.  That's the American driver's side, not 
> the British.  This ended, I believe, with the 1970 models.  There may have 
> been a reason for it "way back when" but Mopar vehicles joined the rest of 
> the car manufacturers without adverse effects in 1971.  Precession may not 
> be the correct term for this but it is good enough for now.
>   Where we agree...  Like you, I believe there must be a technical reason 
> for "wheel loss syndrome" and there must be a technical solution to the 
> problem.  I would say that a simple phone call between Engineers of the 
> British coach manufacturers and an American one might resolve the issue. 
> Professional courtesy would likely prevail and information would be 
> shared.  It is probably an issue of thread pitch and/or thread profile 
> and/or materials used.  In any case, with billions of perfectly happy lugs 
> out there, somebody has probably solved this problem and that knowledge 
> exists.  Of course, I may be wrong.  Despite the appearance of simplicity, 
> the interface of so many dynamic and static parts in a wheel system makes 
> the issue very complicated.
>   We also agree that these type of fastening systems are dependent on 
> friction which is, among other things, a function of the contact force 
> between surfaces.  As you torque a bolt or nut, the force between the 
> thread surfaces increases.  The simplified formula is F = (mu) x N where 
> "F" is the sliding force required, "mu" is the coefficient of friction and 
> "N" is the normal force between the surfaces.  Further to this topic, we 
> agree that the stretch/compression of the threads' contact surfaces is 
> what increases the "N" factor in the equation.  As "N" increases, so does 
> "F" if "mu" remains steady.
>   As an aside, I worked on a project whose purpose was to more precisely 
> fasten components together,  Our customer was designing equipment to bolt 
> heads to motors.  The way it was done previously was strictly with torque. 
> The new system would turn bolts/nuts to a preset torque to save time and 
> then further tighten the fastener to the required stretch point.  The 
> automotive industry has adopted this method universally.
>   That all has to do with the "N" part of the equation but you evolve into 
> the "mu" part where we may not agree.  You state, "The problem with that 
> is that a large part of the tightening torque is absorbed in overcoming 
> the friction of the thread, and the stud doesn't stretch sufficiently to 
> clamp everything together."  The friction derived from tightening the bolt 
> creates the friction which prevents the threads from backing off.  It is a 
> good thing, not a "problem."  As stated above, "the stretch/compression of 
> the threads' contact surfaces is what increases the "N" factor in the 
> equation.  As "N" increases, so does "F" if "mu" remains steady."  I 
> believe what you are doing is reducing "mu" and then compensating by 
> increasing the stretch of the system.  The increased stretch increases the 
> "N" which compensates for your reduced "mu."  "F" is the critical factor.
>   Bringing this together ... The lug/lug nuts on your coaches are over 
> designed for strength.  They designed them this way to guard against 
> stripped threads when some guy goes crazy with an impact wrench.  Forgive 
> me but the only reason your system doesn't result in disaster is because 
> the threads are capable of withstanding the increased stress to which you 
> subject them.  Other fastening applications would not survive.  By the 
> way, if that crazy guy with an impact wrench works on your greased lugs, 
> you may have an accident waiting to happen.
>   As other examples:
>   1.  If applied to attaching heads to our Corvair motors, your method 
> would likely result in multiple studs ripping out of the crank cases.  The 
> additional stretch of the nut/stud interface would transmit to the 
> stud/crank case with disastrous results.  Never lubricate these threads.
>   2)  The application that started this thread has to do with fuel leaks. 
> Randy suggested that grease be used on the threads when tightening this 
> interface.  He cautioned that you should only tighten finger tight to 
> avoid stripping the threads.  Threads in softer metals like copper, 
> aluminum/aluminium, malleable steel, etc. are easier to strip than the 
> lugs on your coaches.
>   As an aside, there are many types of "thread-locker" products available. 
> Their uses and attributes vary wildly and care must be taken to select the 
> right one for the application.  In any case, they are not lubricants.  In 
> addition, the use of one of these products that is too viscous might give 
> you poor fastening results.
>   Doc
>   In a message dated 9/27/2018 2:20:31 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
> Hugo at aruncoaches.co.uk writes:
>
>   An interesting hypothesis, but I'm going to disagree with most of what 
> you
> say - apart from the fact that if it is proving so difficult to get a seal
> when there's only a couple of pounds pressure, there is clearly something
> fundamentally wrong. It just should not be that critical.
> A bit of background - I am a coach operator based in the UK. we have a 
> thing
> called 'wheel loss syndrome', whereby the left-hand rear wheels tend to 
> fall
> off buses. At least that's what the politicians call it - I call it simply
> bad engineering practice.
> Some years ago we switched to the European system of having right-hand
> threads on all wheel fastenings. British vehicles used to have left-hand
> thread lug nuts on the left side of the vehicle (as did quality cars 
> also).
> This is to counter the effects of 'precession', which will tend to make 
> them
> unscrew otherwise. A bicycle pedal will have left-hand threads on the left
> pedal for the same reason, which seems counter-intuitive at first, till 
> you
> understand the principle of precession.
> Anyway, back to bus wheels falling off - the coach and bus industry as a
> whole is paranoid about this 'syndrome'. But I am not. The main reason 
> that
> wheels keep falling off is because people adopt the procedure you have
> outlined - they fit everything dry. Let me try to explain - a bolt or
> set-screw is like a spring. When you tighten the nut, it will stretch, and
> clamp everything together like a strong spring. On old British Triumph
> motorcycles, they didn't give a torque setting for the big-end bolts 
> (conrod
> bolts) - you just used to tighten them till they stretched 1/8" or 
> something
> like that.
> On the back wheel of a bus, with twin wheels, you have a total of six 
> mating
> faces. Any dirt, rust or paint on these faces when they are assembled will
> inevitably wear off in use, leaving the whole assembly loose. If the studs
> are not stretched sufficiently, the whole lot will fall to bits. So the
> first thing I do is clean all mating faces. Then I grease them lightly. I
> never put two metal surfaces together dry. Then I use copper grease
> (anti-seize grease) on the studs and lug nuts. That is to minimise the
> friction on the threads, and ensure that the stud is properly stretched 
> and
> applying sufficient clamping force. Many if not most operators will fit 
> the
> lug nuts dry. The problem with that is that a large part of the tightening
> torque is absorbed in overcoming the friction of the thread, and the stud
> doesn't stretch sufficiently to clamp everything together. The nuts are
> tightened till they are stiff rather than tight. These are the people who
> have to check their wheel nuts with a torque wrench every day and fit 
> little
> plastic indicators so they can see when they are coming loose. These are 
> the
> people who end up in traffic court when their wheels have fallen off, and
> everybody scratches their heads because "all the proper procedures have 
> been
> followed". I never check mine from one year to the next, I never use a
> torque wrench, and they never come loose. The only remaining mystery is 
> why
> American trucks & buses don't seem to suffer from this problem.
> I realise this diatribe is of limited value when discussing fuel lines.
> Power-steering lines will hold a couple of thousand PSI without leaking, 
> so
> as I said earlier, it should not be necessary to adopt all sorts of exotic
> practices to stop gasoline leaking out at a couple of PSI. I reckon you 
> are
> missing something somewhere.
>
>
>
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-- 
Jay Maechtlen
SoCal
'61 2-dr modified w/fiberglass skin,
transverse 3.8 Buick V6 TH440T4 trans
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