<VV> Loose axle

Byron LaMotte bhlamotte at gmail.com
Fri Mar 6 08:58:35 EST 2020 

Yikes, I thought it was just me. I lost a LR wheel at 60 mph. Fortunately
there was a grassy area to the left to move over to for a soft landing.

On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 8:30 AM Hugo Miller via VirtualVairs <
virtualvairs at corvair.org> wrote:

> Not that simple. I am looking for an on-the-car wheel balancer. The
> nearest one I found is in Atlanta. Pep Boys down the road has a
> 'road-force' balancer which I suppose is the next best thing. My wheels
> are Daytons - pretty stock-looking, not like these kids that have the
> wheels hanging out a foot from the wheel arches.
> I have my reservations about these wheels Dayton incidentally. I once
> had a wheel fall off as I was backing out of a shed in my back yard. It
> fell off in the space of moving the car ten feet. What had happened was
> that there was a wooden box on the ground just the right height to catch
> the spinner as I backed out. That unscrewed the spinner a turn or two
> and then the drive teeth disengaged and spun the hub the rest of the way
> out.
> If the spinners come loose while driving forward, the back wheels will
> tend to screw themselves back on, but if the front spinners come loose,
> the front wheels will fall off when you brake. Not funny. Why don't they
> have proper splines like traditional British Rudge Whitworth wire
> wheels?
>
>
> On 2020-03-05 17:11, Charles Sadek wrote:
> > You wouldn't. That is why offset aftermarket wheel cause problems.
> > You have no idea what the centerline inyour wire wheel is, nor where
> > the c.g. of the wheel is relative to the centerline. And you haven't
> > fixed the wobble. Get that done, then see what is what. You wouldn't
> > ignore it on the hvy equipment you work on in the UK...
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Hugo Miller [mailto:hugo at aruncoaches.co.uk]
> > Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 5:04 PM
> > To: Charles Sadek
> > Cc: virtualvairs at corvair.org
> > Subject: RE: <VV> Loose axle
> >
> > If there are large forces present, then it's not ideal! Why would you
> > design the forces to act anywhere other than directly through the
> > bearing in a straight line? I have no idea what my wheel offset is
> > either. I'll see if I can find a drawing somewhere.
> >
> >
> > On 2020-03-05 16:59, Charles Sadek wrote:
> >> I have no idea what your wire wheel offset/back spacing is, but I
> >> can
> >> assure you that there are large forces present due to offsets from
> >> the
> >> ideal wheel/tire patch center line thru the bearings.
> >>
> >> Chuck S
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: VirtualVairs [mailto:virtualvairs-bounces at corvair.org] On
> >> Behalf Of Hugo Miller via VirtualVairs
> >> Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 4:56 PM
> >> To: William Hubbell
> >> Cc: Virtual Vairs; Doug Mackintosh
> >> Subject: Re: <VV> Loose axle
> >>
> >> Absolutely. But as I said earlier, the weight should be more or less
> >> perpendicular through the wheel bearing. The tire should not be
> >> outboard
> >> of the wheel bearing, or not by much, anyway. So the force on the
> >> inner
> >> end of the shaft should be minimal at worst. I haven't been
> >> underneath
> >> with a lever yet by the way.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 2020-03-05 13:31, William Hubbell wrote:
> >>> Hugo,
> >>>
> >>> Think about it - the weight of the car is resting on the tires,
> >>> which
> >>> are lateral to (outboard) the wheel bearing.  The wheel bearing is
> >>> acting as the fulcrum of a lever, with the wheel and tire at one
> >>> end
> >>> and the u-joint yoke at the other end.  Because the bearing allows
> >>> angular movement, when the weight of the car is on the tires, that
> >>> end
> >>> of the lever is forced upwards, when in turn will force the yoke
> >>> end
> >>> downwards.
> >>>
> >>> This is easily demonstrated by noticing the change in camber of the
> >>> wheel from when it is raised off the ground to when the weight of
> >>> the
> >>> car is resting on it.
> >>>
> >>> Bill
> >>>
> >>>> On Mar 5, 2020, at 10:54 AM, Hugo Miller via VirtualVairs
> >>>> <virtualvairs at corvair.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Yes indeed - I'm with you. As soon as I gave this some serious
> >>> thought, I realised this set-up would only work with a
> >>> self-aligning
> >>> bearing. BUT ... if - IF - the weight of the car sits directly over
> >>> the bearing (as it should, pretty much) there won't be any force
> >>> acting on the shaft. I guess it is probably off by a bit, but I
> >>> still
> >>> don't reckon it should be by much. What I'm going to do is stick a
> >>> big
> >>> lever in there & see if I can get any movement at the inboard end
> >>> of
> >>> the shaft.
> >>> Having said all that, however, my initial reason for checking the
> >>> shafts was to see if they might be the cause of, or contributing
> >>> to,
> >>> my wheel wobble that goes in & out of phase. If indeed there IS a
> >>> load
> >>> on the axle shaft coming from the weight of the car, then it isn't
> >>> going to wobble anyway! It may run slightly out of line, but it
> >>> will
> >>> at least run true.
> >>>
> >>>> On 2020-03-05 09:53, Doug Mackintosh wrote:
> >>>> Hugo, the wheel bearing allows angular movement since the
> >>>> suspension
> >>>> arm/bearing mount does not stay in alignment with the axle shaft
> >>>> as
> >>>> the suspension arm moves. As a result, when the tire is pushed
> >>>> upward
> >>>> (e.g. when the car is resting on the tires) the axle assembly can
> >>>> rotate about the wheel bearing which will push down the
> >>>> differential
> >>>> end of the axle. So I think when you rest the car on the ground it
> >>>> may
> >>>> push down at the differential end and make the slop disappear. Not
> >>>> sure how much force there would be at the differential end, but
> >>>> likely
> >>>> enough that you would not be able to push it with your hand.
> >>>>
> >>>> <<Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2020 00:51:04 -0500
> >>>>
> >>>> From: Hugo Miller <hugo at aruncoaches.co.uk [1]>
> >>>>
> >>>> To: Jim Becker <mr.jebecker at gmail.com [2]>
> >>>>
> >>>> Cc: <virtualvairs at corvair.org [3]>
> >>>>
> >>>> Subject: Re: <VV> Loose axle
> >>>>
> >>>> Message-ID: <9999202a7456d0bb32d4528e718c4e5e at aruncoaches.co.uk
> >>>> [4]>
> >>>>
> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> >>>>
> >>>> Alignment? What alignment? Are you saying thew rear wheel
> >>>> alignment
> >>>>
> >>>> will change if there is no engine or drivetrain in the car?
> >>>> Because
> >>>> the
> >>>>
> >>>> weight of the car will push upwards on the outer end of the axle
> >>>> shaft
> >>>>
> >>>> and downwards on the inboard end? Is that your point? I see what
> >>>> you
> >>>>
> >>>> mean, but there's a double taper roller bearing at the outer end,
> >>>> isn't
> >>>>
> >>>> there, that I would have expected to hold the whole lot in
> >>>> alignment.
> >>>>
> >>>> Why doesn't it? Or is it a self-aligning bearing? That might
> >>>> explain
> >>>> why
> >>>>
> >>>> the tapers look the wrong way round? But then again, if it's
> >>>>
> >>>> self-aligning, it shouldn't be exerting any force in ANY
> >>>> direction.
> >>>> This
> >>>>
> >>>> all seemed so simple till I started thinking about it!
> >>>>
> >>>> But when I grabbed it earlier, I was pushing more forwards and
> >>>>
> >>>> backwards rather than up & down, as I was reaching under the car
> >>>> to
> >>>> do
> >>>>
> >>>> it. I'll try it again tomorrow with more force & see if I can get
> >>>>
> >>>> anything to move.>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -- Doug Mackintosh Corsa member since 1996 Corsa/NC member since
> >>>> 1996, Virtual Vairs member Corvair owner 1969-1971 and 1996-on
> >>>>
> >>>> Links:
> >>>> ------
> >>>> [1] mailto:hugo at aruncoaches.co.uk
> >>>> [2] mailto:mr.jebecker at gmail.com
> >>>> [3] mailto:virtualvairs at corvair.org
> >>>> [4] mailto:9999202a7456d0bb32d4528e718c4e5e at aruncoaches.co.uk
> >>>
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-- 
Byron (Brud) LaMotte
South Wind
4501 World Farm Rd.
Oxford, Md. 21654
410-924-1311 cell

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