<VV> Wire wheels filters and clocks

Sethracer at aol.com Sethracer at aol.com
Tue Oct 13 21:47:30 EDT 2015


I love autocrossing! -Seth
 
 
In a message dated 10/13/2015 6:21:42 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
virtualvairs at corvair.org writes:

Actually  the 61 clock has a totally different base -- part of the 
clock.  The  later ones have the base as a separate piece.  I always add 
a ground  wire any way ... makes the clock work :-)

The point on the filters was  not a HUGE discussion of the many filters 
-- I said I did not have them  all -- and it is not just color.  Blue/red 
letter is not the same as  blue/white letters as the red letters appeared 
in 62, the white letters  later.  I don't think 62 ever had white filters 
unless you replaced  them in 1965 :-)  Although I have also read that it 
is "well  established" that cars left the factory with black filters and  
replacements were blue (with red letters in 62) -- I have 20-30 black  
filters NOS in the box that say pretty loudly that not all replacement  
filters were blue/red.  The black ones are also different -- the  gasket 
is not integrated.  I use them because I like them.  And  they are 
legit.  Blue/red is my second favorite and every 3-4 changes  I switch it 
up (bold aren't I :-)  )

My point is only that  dealer options are legit in MY (meaning nothing) 
view if the item is older  than the car.  Nothing wrong with a 61 clock 
on a 62 car, a 63 clock  on a 64 car -- the dealer grabs what is on the 
shelf and puts it on (well,  they did then).  Certainly they did not say 
"oh my gosh, 40 years  from now in a concours some judge is going to 
claim the clock is the wrong  year and deduct points).  A black or a 
blue/red filter is fine on a  62.  A white/red letters is not.  If one is 
being  fussy.

Yes -- very pricey re-chroming can preserve the arrows -- and it  is 
rarely done.  If you have knock-offs with no arrows or almost  impossible 
to see arrows, they are not correct.  This detail is NEVER  noticed by 
concours judges.  I have seen winning cars with mismatched  arrows and/or 
missing arrows, and stainless spokes, and so forth, because  of the "wow" 
factor of the wheels.  Which is a shame.  If they  are fussy about the 
darn base on the clock, they should be fussy about the  arrows on the 
knock offs.  IMO which means  nothing.

Eric

On 10/13/2015 2:25 PM, Dusty Steinberg  wrote:
>
> The 1962 / 1963 center inserts are correct for the  early 1964 model 
> year cars, but you will need to check with the  "stock group" to know 
> what the cut off date is.
>
> 1962  & 1963 clocks are the same, and the 1964 clock is different.  It  
> has a ground wire in addition to the power and illumination  wires.  
> Just another one of these meaningless changes that  Chevrolet made with 
> the model year change over.
>
> As  for the filters being black, blue, or for that matter, white, it 
> has  been well established that all the engines left with black 
> filters,  and the correct replacement filter, if you want to say that 
> there was  a filter and oil change at the dealership in 1962. you are 
> correct  that it would have been a blue filter.  Time has proven that 
>  there were more than a few incarnations of the black filter that was 
>  original equipment on the engine.
>
> To follow up on the re  chroming of the knock offs, there are chrome 
> shops out there that can  properly restore a damaged knock off to 
> perfection, however, they  don't come cheap.
>
> Paul in CT
>
>   -----Original Message-----
>     From: "Eric  S. Eberhard"
>     Sent: Oct 13, 2015 4:59  PM
>     To: Dusty Steinberg
>      Cc: virtualvairs at corvair.org, judynrandy at comcast.net
>   Subject: Re: Wire wheels -- hammers and so  forth
>
>     I stand corrected on the year for the  center change :-)  And those
>     are the combos I  have seen on arrows (on each on/off, both off,
>     both  on, and nothing).  My opinion is the "nothings" are
>   re-chromes where that level of detail could not be kept.  I  took
>     some to have chromed and the shops all said  they could not
>     guarantee the detail would  remain.  I don't think they made any
>     with no  arrows.  Mine are all two "off" arrows.  And, I  noticed
>     while looking, I still have my old  stainless caps (not the repros)
>     in the  wheels.  Little color-challenged but now I think I'll leave
>   them.
>
>     I put this in here  because a LOT of concourse cars have K-H
>      wheels.  Almost all are fakes.  They have been "rebuilt"  with
>     stainless spokes and new rims (I think that  means only the center
>     portion is original -- 90% is  reproduction some with the wrong
>     materials).   The centers don't match and often many will have no
>      arrows (re-chromed).  So they cobbled up some crappy  wheels,
>     chromed a lot of stuff, and then call it  original and get big
>     points in the shows.  And  spent big dollars.  It was nice when you
>     could  get a nice full set with hammer and mount for spare and all
>   for $800.00  If that is your thing ... these rebuilt sets  are 5k
>     and more.  I made more money on those  wheels than I ever did on
>     cars as I hoarded a lot  when they were cheap.  The last two sets
>     they  asked me to ship the spinners only (Corvette people) so I
>   have spare wheels if anyone needs one.  They all need some  work
>     (rechrome or the full stainless  route).
>
>     My wheels -- all original.  No  stainless spokes.  Small marks on
>     original  rims.  Original centers (I am getting senile, I was
>   pretty sure I changed those).  I like it that way -- all  original
>     and matching.
>
>   Another thing that drives me insane on these concours cars  and
>     judges is the extras besides wheels.  A 64  car could easily have
>     63 centers because they were  a dealer installed, moved around from
>     car-to-car,  etc. option.  Dealers would take them off cars people
>   wanted (but would not pay for the wires), put them on some  other
>     car, etc.  In 62 the oil filter should  be blue with red letters. 
>     Older were black with  white.  Later were blue with white and white
>      with red.  And I probably missed a few.  Once again, the 62  car
>     could easily come with a black/white filter --  but NEVER with a
>     white/red filter.  The clocks  changed after 61.  It is a dealer
>     installed  option.  If you bought a 62 he went to his shelf and
>   grabbed a clock -- gasp, maybe a 61 clock -- and put it on.   It is
>     just fine for a 62 to have a 61 clock, it is  NOT fine for a 61 to
>     have a 62 clock.  I drive  my car, so I don't care that much, but
>     every once  in a while someone has to tell me that my 62 has a 61
>   clock (actually I replaced it finally with a 62 clock --  less
>     annoying), or whatever,
>
>   Dealers grabbed what they had when you asked for dealer options.  
>     The years don't have to be identical, just logical  (e.g. the part
>     must have existed at the time the  car was delivered).
>
>     So I think black  filters and 61 clocks are fine on a 62.  In fact,
>   my favorite filter is indeed the black one.  It is a  minority
>     opinion, and generally not shared by the  concours crowd.  I am in
>     the weird crowd -- I  stay original but for a few safety items
>     (like  radials) ... and drive them.  All my cars would score in  the
>     90s but would never win a concours on a  national level unless they
>     add a daily driver  class.
>
>     Eric
>
>
>   On 10/13/2015 1:12 PM, Dusty Steinberg  wrote:
>>
>>     To add to what Eric has  written, I have seen the knock offs with
>>     arrows  stamped showing both on and off,  both off, both on,  and
>>     on one knock off, it was marked off and on,  and the arrows were
>>     pointing toward the same  direction.  Back in the early 1980's, I
>>      spoke to the engineer at Kelsey Hayes that was in charge of  the
>>     project for the Chevrolet wheels.  I  learned a lot of information
>>     from him, such as  the earlier knock offs, had the ears closer to
>>      the spokes, and that they changed them to be further out, so  the
>>     spokes wouldn't get hit.  There was  also a label in the later
>>     production wheels  that said to tap the spokes with a coin to see
>>      if they had come loose.  The spoke threads were set in an  epoxy
>>     that kept them from coming loose, but  occasionally, a spoke would
>>     come lose even  though the epoxy was applied.  That was the reason
>>   for the label on the inside of the wheel. I have a complete  set
>>     of the engineering drawings that he sent to  me.
>>
>>     I would also like to point out  that the stainless steel center
>>     cap was used in  1962 & 1963, and changed to the aluminum black
>>   electroplated logo for the 1964  model.
>>
>>     Paul in  CT
>>
>>         -----Original  Message-----
>>         From: "Eric S.  Eberhard"
>>         Sent: Oct 13, 2015 3:56  PM
>>         To: virtualvairs at corvair.org,  noahsarkinc at earthlink.net,
>>          judynrandy at comcast.net
>>         Subject:  Wire wheels -- hammers and so forth
>>
>>     I have had a LOT of wire wheels -- 20 sets at one time,  4
>>         cars with them at a time for a  while.  I still run one car
>>          with K-H wheels and have some spares.
>>
>>     The very best way to get the spinners on and off is  indeed
>>         the plastic covered lead  pellet type hammer.  Probably what
>>       the snap on is.  Mine came from NAPA.  I also am  protective
>>         but I don't use wood,  I use cardboard.  I take a thick box
>>       folded in half and place it where I am going to strike.   This
>>         works well.  And  re-chroming is not only costly, but actually
>>       ruins them (you can usually tell).  There is a lot of  fine
>>         print on the spinners about  direction and so forth.
>>
>>       Trivia for the day -- the arrows are NOT all the same --  not
>>         in location or design.   A true original set will have all
>>          matching arrows.  Cobbled together sets -- especially  by
>>         people that were hoarders like  me and did not know better (I
>>          did) --- will end up with a mixed set.  I don't know why  this
>>         is -- 62 Corvette used the  same spinner and it is tempting to
>>       say one was Corvette and one was Corvair.  Except I have  seen
>>         four distinct designs  (including location -- really 2 designs
>>       and 2 locations).
>>
>>       They should be put on not terribly tight.  They  are
>>         directional -- right sides  need to be on the right, left on
>>          left.  This makes the normal activity of driving tend  to
>>         tighten rather than  loosen.  So you don't have to make them
>>       super tight -- just tight enough to hold them and  not
>>         wobble.  Then an extra  whack or two.  Then stop.  They
>>       generally come off fairly easily if done this  way.
>>
>>         By general rule  on all things old cars -- especially Corvairs
>>       -- don't over tighten.  And the raw lead hammer will  deform
>>         and then damage the  chrome.  I hide the NAPA hammer, and
>>       leave the pristine lead one out for  show.
>>
>>         Trivia two for  the day -- the hammers are almost never
>>       correct.  ALL the K-H wheels are 62 wheels that carried  over
>>         as they did not sell.   All the hammers, then, are 62
>>          hammers.  Like Corvettes (sadly my spinners were sold  to
>>         Corvette people as they are  the same and they pay 10 time as
>>          much for a set of spinners as I could get for an entire set
>>   of wheels) the hammer changed in 63.  All  replacements (NOS
>>         or otherwise  were 63+ style).  You can fake it easily.  I
>>   made several.  You have to shorten the handle,  use a punch
>>         and put some dimples  in two places, and add weld marks which
>>       are not present on later hammers all around the head of  the
>>         hammer.  Many people  just figure, black lead hammer, all
>>       good.  And never know they have the wrong one.  Finding  a
>>         correct one is almost  impossible.  Buying replicas gets the
>>       wrong (63 style) one.  The only way I know of is to get a  63
>>         (replica or otherwise) and  modify it.  Or get lucky and get a
>>       real one.  I kept a real one (the lead is messy) and  modified
>>         a replica so they are  identical (lead pretty).  And use the
>>       shot filled hammer for real life.
>>
>>   Oh -- 62 centers are different too, the Clarks  replicas are
>>         not bad.   Different metal, but largely undetectable.  I run
>>   them on the car and keep the originals in a drawer  in case I
>>         ever get the energy to  restore them.
>>
>>          Eric
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     On 10/13/2015 9:00 AM, virtualvairs-request at corvair.org  wrote:
>>>         Send VirtualVairs  mailing list submissions to
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>>>
>>>       Please also edit to include only the topic you're responding to  
when replying to a Digest.
>>>          This message was sent by the VirtualVairs mailing list, all 
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>>>         of the writer,  please attribute properly.
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options:http://www.vv.corvair.org/mailman/options/virtualvairs
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>>>
>>>   Today's  Topics:
>>>
>>>           1. Re: Centering the Pressure Plate (Harry Yarnell  (Verizon))
>>>             2.  Re: Distributor swap? (Bryan Blackwell)
>>>       3. Re: Distributor swap?  (Sethracer at aol.com)
>>>           4. clutch disc thickness revisited  (judynrandy at comcast.net)
>>>           5. wire wheel question  (judynrandy at comcast.net)
>>>           6. Re: wire wheel question (Dusty  Steinberg)
>>>
>>>
>>>        
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>   Message: 1
>>>       Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 17:38:06 -0400
>>>   From: "Harry Yarnell  \(Verizon\)"<harryyarnell at verizon.net>
>>>     To:<BobHelt at aol.com>,     "'corvair'"<virtualvairs at corvair.org>
>>>     Subject: Re:<VV>  Centering the Pressure  Plate
>>>          Message-ID:<002d01d10536$4b1d7690$e15863b0$@net>
>>>   Content-Type: text/plain;     charset="US-ASCII"
>>>
>>>       Bob, this is great in theory, but I've never had the  
flywheel/pressure plate
>>>          balanced.
>>>
>>>          I've done countless clutch jobs and never had a balance  issue.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   From:BobHelt at aol.com   [mailto:BobHelt at aol.com]
>>>          Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 4:35 PM
>>>        
To:harryyarnell at verizon.net;egszuch at gmail.com;virtualvairs at corvair.org
>>>   Subject: Re:<VV>  Centering the Pressure  Plate
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Hold on there for just a  second.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   It is highly recommended that you have the flywheel  and pressure 
plate
>>>          professionally balanced together. When this is done the 
balancer guy  will
>>>         identify how the two  parts should be aligned with some punch 
marks or other
>>>   means of showing alignment. So when you mount the  PP onto the FW you 
need to
>>>          align these markings to retain proper  balance.
>>>
>>>         Bob  Helt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   In a message dated 10/12/2015 12:37:27 P.M. US  Mountain Standard Tim,
>>>          virtualvairs at corvair.org  writes:
>>>
>>>   As others have said, just bolt it up; it's a  non-issue. The disc is 
what you
>>>       should align. As someone else mentioned, use the input  shaft.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    ------------------------------
>>>
>>>     Message: 2
>>>       Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 17:58:13 -0400
>>>   From: Bryan  Blackwell<bryan at skiblack.com>
>>>       To: Grant  Young<gyoungwolf at earthlink.net>
>>>       Cc:"virtualvairs at corvair.org"   <virtualvairs at corvair.org>
>>>       Subject: Re:<VV>  Distributor  swap?
>>>          Message-ID:<9CADE88D-6D51-435E-87DA-9E94A2952B5D at skiblack.com>
>>>   Content-Type: text/plain;  charset=us-ascii
>>>
>>>       Hi Grant,
>>>
>>>       I've run a couple different distributors in engines over the  
years and found that for overall use on a relatively stock engine the  
specified distributor does work best.  I'm sure there are some  exceptions, but at 
this point I would to start with the correct one and go  from there.
>>>
>>>          --Bryan
>>>
>>>           
>>>>         On Oct 12, 2015,  at 5:15 PM, Grant Young via 
VirtualVairs<virtualvairs at corvair.org>   wrote:
>>>>
>>>>       First, thanks for all the information on the AC set up on the 
car  I have in the shop. As I continue to work through things, I have 
discovered it  has a 1964 95 HP motor, but with the 110 HP distributor that was in 
its  original 1965 110. Was this an acceptable parts swap? It redlines okay, 
but  falls on its face on the road at higher rpms.
>>>>     
>>>        ------------------------------
>>>
>>>     Message: 3
>>>       Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 19:17:48 -0400
>>>   From:Sethracer at aol.com
>>>      To:bryan at skiblack.com,gyoungwolf at earthlink.net
>>>     Cc:virtualvairs at corvair.org
>>>     Subject: Re:<VV>  Distributor  swap?
>>>          Message-ID:<385a24.8e06e61.434d999b at aol.com>
>>>   Content-Type: text/plain;  charset="US-ASCII"
>>>
>>>       Grant - The issue you have is that you have the relative low  
compression
>>>         and mild cam  timing of the 95HP motor. No matter what timing 
you use, it  will
>>>           never be a high  RPM motor. But, hey, you run regular gas! -  
Seth
>>>
>>>
>>>       In a message dated 10/12/2015 2:58:18 P.M. Pacific Daylight  Time,
>>>          virtualvairs at corvair.org  writes:
>>>
>>>   Hi   Grant,
>>>
>>>         I've  run a couple different distributors in engines over the  
years  and
>>>         found that for overall  use on a relatively stock engine the  
specified
>>>   distributor does work best.  I'm sure there  are some  exceptions, 
but at this point
>>>     I would to start with the correct one and go  from  there.
>>>
>>>          --Bryan
>>>
>>>           
>>>>         On Oct 12, 2015,  at 5:15 PM, Grant  Young via VirtualVairs
>>>>   
>>>       <virtualvairs at corvair.org>   wrote:
>>>             
>>>>
>>>>          First, thanks for all the information on the AC set up on the 
car I   have
>>>>               
>>>         in the shop. As I continue  to work through things, I have 
discovered it
>>>     has a 1964 95 HP motor, but with the 110 HP distributor  that was 
in its
>>>         original 1965  110. Was this an acceptable parts swap? It 
redlines okay,  but
>>>         falls on its face on the  road at higher rpms.
>>>
>>>        _______________________________________________
>>>     This message was  sent by the VirtualVairs mailing  list, all 
copyrights are
>>>         the  property
>>>         of  the writer,  please attribute properly. For help,
>>>       mailto:vv-help at corvair.org
>>>       This list sponsored by the Corvair Society of   America,
>>>          http://www.corvair.org/
>>>         Post  messages to:VirtualVairs at corvair.org
>>>       Change your  
options:http://www.vv.corvair.org/mailman/options/virtualvairs
>>>    Archives:http://www.vv.corvair.org/archive.htm
>>>      _______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    ------------------------------
>>>
>>>     Message: 4
>>>       Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 03:18:31 +0000 (UTC)
>>>   From:judynrandy at comcast.net
>>>   To:virtualvairs at corvair.org
>>>   Subject:<VV>  clutch disc thickness  revisited
>>>          Message-ID:
>>>              
<361921451.3252418.1444706311293.JavaMail.zimbra at comcast.net>
>>>   Content-Type: text/plain;  charset=utf-8
>>>
>>>          I just wanted to say thanx to those who responded to my clutch 
questions.? The  owner of said car in question relented and decided to 
spring for a whole  clutch job.? Everything will be replaced.? Thanx again.
>>>   ?
>>>          Randy (Cap'n) Hook
>>>         Hopewell,?  PA
>>>
>>>
>>>        ------------------------------
>>>
>>>     Message: 5
>>>       Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 03:23:12 +0000 (UTC)
>>>   From:judynrandy at comcast.net
>>>   To:virtualvairs at corvair.org
>>>   Subject:<VV>  wire wheel  question
>>>          Message-ID:
>>>              
<164621664.3254251.1444706592528.JavaMail.zimbra at comcast.net>
>>>   Content-Type: text/plain;  charset=utf-8
>>>
>>>          The aforementioned car needing the clutch job also came with 
wire wheels.? The  real deal.? And boy are they gorgeous!!!? Anyway, this is 
my first experience  with wire wheels.? I figured out how to get them off 
ok, but when I put them  back on, how do I know how tight to tighten the 
"knock  offs"?
>>>         Randy (Cap'n)  Hook
>>>         Hopewell,  PA
>>>
>>>
>>>        ------------------------------
>>>
>>>     Message: 6
>>>       Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 09:14:04 -0400  (GMT-04:00)
>>>         From: Dusty  Steinberg<noahsarkinc at earthlink.net>
>>>        To:judynrandy at comcast.net,virtualvairs at corvair.org
>>>   Subject: Re:<VV>  wire wheel  question
>>>          Message-ID:
>>>              
<22886202.1444742044447.JavaMail.root at elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
>>>   
>>>       Content-Type: text/plain;  charset=UTF-8
>>>
>>>          According to the instructions that came with the car, to 
properly remove and  install them, you should use a lead hammer.  My experience 
is that even  the lead  hammer can damage the chrome on the wing of the knock 
off, so  what I use is a piece of 2"x4" piece of wood that I can 
comfortably hold with  my left hand, and then use a short handle 5# sledge hammer in 
my right hand,  and hit the wood after it is place securely on the wing that 
I want to  move.  This prevents any damage to the chrome, and as long as you 
don't  swing the hammer wildly, you don't hit the spokes either.  This is 
how I  have done this since getting my first Corvair with the Kelsey Hayes 
wire  wheels.  I have seen some people use a brass hammer, and this will also  
damage the chrome.  I have never tried using a Snap On Dead Blow Hammer,  
but I believe that this would work without damaging the chrome on the wings,  
however, I don't want to gamble trying it with one of my pristine knock  
offs.  It cost too 
much to hav
>>>
>>>   e
>>>           them replated.
>>>         Paul in  CT
>>>
>>>
>>>       -----Original Message-----
>>>       
>>>>          From: Randy Hook via  VirtualVairs<virtualvairs at corvair.org>
>>>>     Sent: Oct 12, 2015 11:23 PM
>>>>    To:virtualvairs at corvair.org
>>>>       Subject:<VV>  wire wheel  question
>>>>
>>>>       The aforementioned car needing the clutch job also came with 
wire  wheels.? The real deal.? And boy are they gorgeous!!!? Anyway, this is my 
 first experience with wire wheels.? I figured out how to get them off ok, 
but  when I put them back on, how do I know how tight to tighten the "knock  
offs"?
>>>>         Randy (Cap'n)  Hook
>>>>         Hopewell,  PA
>>>>          _______________________________________________
>>>>   This message was sent by the VirtualVairs mailing  list, all 
copyrights are the property
>>>>       of the writer, please attribute properly. For  
help,mailto:vv-help at corvair.org
>>>>       This list sponsored by the Corvair Society of  
America,http://www.corvair.org/
>>>>       Post messages  to:VirtualVairs at corvair.org
>>>>       Change your  
options:http://www.vv.corvair.org/mailman/options/virtualvairs
>>>>    Archives:http://www.vv.corvair.org/archive.htm
>>>>    _______________________________________________

>>>>   
>>>        ------------------------------
>>>
>>>     Subject: Digest  Footer
>>>
>>>          _______________________________________________
>>>     This message was sent by the VirtualVairs mailing list,  all 
copyrights are the property
>>>       of the writer, please attribute properly. For help, mail  
to:vv-help at corvair.org
>>>         This  list sponsored by the Corvair Society of  
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>>>       VirtualVairs at corvair.org
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>>>    ------------------------------
>>>
>>>     End of VirtualVairs Digest, Vol 129, Issue  21
>>>          *********************************************
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>
>>     -- 
>>         Eric S.  Eberhard
>>         VICS
>>   2933 W Middle Verde Road
>>     Camp Verde, AZ  86322
>>
>>   928-567-3727  work         928-301-7537   cell
>>
>>          http://www.vicsmba.com/index.html             (our work)
>>          http://www.vicsmba.com/ourpics/index.html      (fun  pictures)
>>
>
>     -- 
>   Eric S. Eberhard
>     VICS
>   2933 W Middle Verde Road
>     Camp Verde,  AZ  86322
>
>     928-567-3727   work                     928-301-7537  cell
>
>      http://www.vicsmba.com/index.html             (our work)
>      http://www.vicsmba.com/ourpics/index.html      (fun  pictures)
>

-- 
Eric S. Eberhard
VICS
2933 W Middle  Verde Road
Camp Verde, AZ  86322

928-567-3727  work    928-301-7537  cell

http://www.vicsmba.com/index.html     (our  work)
http://www.vicsmba.com/ourpics/index.html     (fun  pictures)

_______________________________________________
This  message was sent by the VirtualVairs mailing list, all copyrights are 
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