<VV> Missing FC's HELP!!!!!
Rick Loving
ral1963 at comcast.net
Fri Mar 3 20:28:17 EST 2017
Please clear one thing up....
In the VIN chart....1963 for FLINT Plant, the Month end VIN for July shows
115210 and the last VIN for AUG as 115211....
So...the last day of July 1963, Wednesday the 31st the 2nd to last 63 FC was
built.......then sometime after midnight and on Thursday Aug 1st 1963...the
last 63 FC rolled off the line.... creating the "only" FC built in the month
of Aug 1963.....
or is there an error in the VIN's as listed....
Rick
_____
From: Rick Loving [mailto:ral1963 at comcast.net]
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2017 7:08 PM
To: 'David Newell'; 'VirtualVairs at corvair.org'
Cc: 'spilatrs at marietta.edu'; 'Matt Nall'; 'Mike McGowan'; 'Rod Murray'; 'Ed
Bittman'; 'Harry Jensen'; 'Kent Sullivan'; 'Mark Corbin'; 'Bill Hubbell';
'Bob Helt'; 'Bob Marlow'; 'spilatrs at marietta.edu'; 'corsa at cox.net'
Subject: RE: <VV> Missing FC's HELP!!!!!
I am glad we are all on the same page in wanting to get the most accuate
numbers out there, updating our information, and preserving the Corvair
history.
I am re-vamping my original email as we kmow what is amiss...
In regards to the FC only 1961 (13 trucks) and 63 (3141 trucks) are
unaccounted for in the "Model Year breakdown" For 61 it accefts all 4 types
and for 63 only 3 models are affected.
Since I do not have the details that Dave does, I mearly determined what the
% to toal each body stayle was and extrapolated the "new" totals using the
same percentages based on the "correct" production totals from the VIN
charts.
This changed the follow model breakdown by the units highlighted in RED..and
added the missing 3154 units to the Total FC production counts.
Hopefully Dave will make adjustments where possible based on his
documentation.
For the car production...
60,61,62,63,64, & 67 are afftected... I noted that the defferences in 67
were directly related to the CDK units and started working towards
calculating "how" the other years exprts could have affected the Model
breakdone.
I had a hypothisis that the only affcted models would be the 4 door Sedans
in the year as they were the expoted models...I theorized that the numbers
somehow got double counted...where they were included in the original model
counts, and then rolled back in from a list showing the exports. It was the
only way the "production" numbers could be counted higher than the VIN
totals....
So I made the similair adjustements to the sedan Model units based on the
variences between the overal production and the VIN production. All changes
to "pre-existing totals are hightlighted in RED...
All in all only a few models from each year were affected....I am curious as
to how my exercise mirrors the actual numbers from.....
I have attcahed my spread sheet with what I calculated...(and pasted it here
below)....
NEW SUGGEST
MODEL #'s
TOTAL 1,827,933
USA 1,779,006
CANADA 48,927
YEAR MODEL TOTALS
1960 Production 248,684
1960 569 46,155
1960 769 136,152
1960 527 14,628
1960 727 36,562
1960 927 11,926
1960 CAN 3,261
* Adjusted Sedan counts down 4,584 for Export Varience
1961 Production 334,412
1961 535 5,591
1961 735 20,451
1961 569 18,009
1961 769 50,462
1961 969 33,002
1961 527 16,857 1961
1961
1961 727 24,786 REVISED % T
TTL ORIGINAL % to TOTAL
1961 927 109,945
47,557 % to total 47,570 % to total
1961 R1206 18,493
18,489 0.389 18,493 0.389
1961 R1205 15,812
15,806 0.332 15,812 0.332
1961 R1254 10,790
10,787 0.227 10,790 0.227
1961 R1244 2,475
2,475 0.052 2,475 0.052
1961 CAN 7,739
* Adjusted Sedan counts down 2,972 for Export Varience
* Adjusted FC counts up for 13 missing units
1962 Production 334,205
1962 735 3,716
1962 935 2,362
1962 569 -
1962 769 34,468
1962 969 47,159
1962 527 16,245
1962 727 18,474
1962 927 144,844
1962 967 13,995
1962 927 S 6,894
1962 967 S 2,574
1962 R1206 18,007
1962 R1205 13,491
1962 R1254 4,102
1962 R1244 369
1962 CAN 7,505
* Adjusted Sedan counts down 1,800 for Export Varience
1963 Production 291,101
1963 569 -
1963 769 20,456
1963 969 30,889
1963 527 16,680
1963 727 12,378
1963 927 117,917
1963 967 36,693 1963
1963
1963 927 S 11,627 REVISED % T
TTL ORIGINAL % to TOTAL
1963 967 S 7,472
30,109 % to total 26,968 % to total
1963 R1206 15,364
15,364 0.5103 13,761 0.5103
1963 R1205 12,461
12,461 0.4139 11,161 0.4139
1963 R1254 2,284
2,284 0.0759 2,046 0.0759
1963 CAN 6,880
* Adjusted Sedan counts down 459 for Export Varience
* Adjusted FC counts up for 3,141 missing units
1964 Production 214,003
1964 569 -
1964 769 16,055
1964 969 21,686
1964 527 22,968
1964 727 -
1964 927 88,440
1964 967 31,045
1964 627 6,480
1964 667 4,761
1964 R1206 6,201
1964 R1205 8,147
1964 R1254 851
1964 CAN 7,369
* Adjusted Sedan counts down 480 for Export Varience
1965 Production 247,092
1965 139 17,560
1965 539 37,157
1965 137 36,747
1965 537 88,954
1965 567 26,466
1965 737 20,291
1965 767 8,353
1965 R1206 1,528
1965 CAN 10,036
1966 Production 109,880
1966 139 8,779
1966 539 12,497
1966 137 24,045
1966 537 37,605
1966 567 10,345
1966 737 7,330
1966 767 3,142
1966 CAN 6,137
1967 Production 27,157
1967 139 2,911
1967 539 3,109
1967 137 9,257
1967 537 9,771
1967 567 2,109
* Adjusted Sedan counts down 96 for Export Varience
1968 Production 15,399
1968 137 7,206
1968 537 6,807
1968 567 1,386
1969 Production 6,000
1969 137 2,762
1969 537 2,717
1969 567 521
Exported Corvairs 11,589 (34,875
total exported Corvairs from 1960-1969)
Belgium Denmark Mexico S
Africa Swiss S America TOTALS
1960 1,841 171 1,383 405 630 384
4,814
1961 616 104 633 720 554 345
2,972
1962 598 18 460 184 429 111
1,800
1963 337 0 0 0 122 0
459
1964 216 0 0 0 264 0
480
1965 336 0 0 0 224 0
560
1966 264 0 0 0 144 0
408
1967 48 0 0 0 48 0
96
1968 0 0 0 0 0 0
0
1969 0 0 0 0 0 0
0
TOTALS 4,256 293 2,476 1,309 2,415 840
11,589
*All Estimated to
meet VIN Productin Totals
-----Original Message-----
From: David Newell [mailto:chevrobilia at yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, March 03, 2017 4:57 AM
To: VirtualVairs at corvair.org
Cc: ral1963 at comcast.net; spilatrs at marietta.edu; Matt Nall; Mike McGowan; Rod
Murray; Ed Bittman; Harry Jensen; Kent Sullivan; Mark Corbin; Bill Hubbell;
Bob Helt; Bob Marlow
Subject: RE: <VV> Missing FC's HELP!!!!!
Rick, Matt, Rod and all...
Thanks for bringing up this important and long overdue issue. Your sharp
eye, Rick, couldn't have had better timing for taming those pesky FC
numbers. Mike McGowan and I've been planning an article for the Communique
this year on just this subject. It's one of four pieces I'm determined to do
before year's end or whenever Mike and Harry retire. Which is when I'll bow
out, thank you.
The FC production numbers by year and model -- as published in The Corvair
Decade and everywhere else Corvair FC numbers have ever been printed -- go
back to the early 1970s when all we had were car numbers. The FC figures
were a huge gap in our knowledge. I'm the guilty party who requested them,
plus the 62-63 Spyder RPO and 65-66 L87 turbo numbers, from Chevrolet.
They've been reprinted a jillion times at least. We had no reason to
question 'em, nor did anyone else.
In 1988 I came across the month-ending serial numbers for each plant. They
were a revelation, but like you I caught the 1963 FC inconsistencies and
wrote a memo to file that flagged them as a possible "breakthrough" in
numbers research. But at the time there was nothing else to check the plant
totals against, much less cross check the original numbers supplied by
Chevy.
Eventually holy grail docs appeared, confirming that the Flint and St Louis
totals were correct and just how faulty some of the original Chevy-supplied
figures were. In my article I'll show how that was done and how the process
also corrected the '63 model production numbers.
Your observation about the 13 FC anomaly in '61 is well taken and right on.
But there's major goof besides that one. It'll surprise and probably dismay
you, in that it's taken me so damn long to write about it. But maybe you'll
all forgive this numbers weary old fart with failing eyesight and way too
much historical trivia to ever have time to explore.
So....help has arrived. I'll fix it. But everyone has to get on board and
spread the new figures. Rick, your questioning the old figures now should
help validate the new numbers. I've been worried that some folks might not
easily embrace the corrections. We'll need to spread the word so that
whenever anyone edits or reprints what they've previously published (with
the old numbers) they can fix it. It should be "official" CORSA policy,
pointed out on the web site, but I know that's expecting too much.
Here's to all of us who care about numerical accuracy. And truth in general.
Somebody's gotta get it right, 'eh? :-)
Dave Newell
History Editor, CORSA Communique
--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 3/2/17, Rod Murray <rmurray at pittsburghpenguins.com> wrote:
Subject: RE: <VV> Missing FC's HELP!!!!!
To: "ral1963 at comcast.net" <ral1963 at comcast.net>, "spilatrs at marietta.edu"
<spilatrs at marietta.edu>, "chevrobilia at yahoo.com" <chevrobilia at yahoo.com>
Cc: "Matt Nall" <patiomatt at aol.com>
Date: Thursday, March 2, 2017, 9:41 AM
Hey rick,
Seems like Steve Spilatro and dave newell might be good sources to check
in with.
Good luck w/ the project...count me amongst those that appreciate thorough
fact-finding and numerical accuracy.
- rod
Rod Murray
Senior Director, Production and Game Presentation Pittsburgh Penguins
rmurray at pittsburghpenguins.com
Office: 412-255-1906 | Fax: 412-255-1980 | Mobile:
412-719-3449
PPG Paints Arena | 1001 Fifth Avenue | Pittsburgh, PA |
15219
-----Original Message-----
From: VirtualVairs [mailto:virtualvairs-bounces at corvair.org]
On Behalf Of Matt Nall via VirtualVairs
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 11:07 AM
To: virtualvairs at corvair.org
Subject: <VV> Missing FC's HELP!!!!!
Rick Loving / Vair Historian needs some help!!
His email is
Does anyone know the "oldest" published model numbers for Corvair Forward
Control trucks (and where those totals came from?)?
When you look at all the historical numbers for 1963 FC production there
is a 3,141 variance between what has been reported historically...and I
want to fix it!!!
...according to the Corvair Decade (not sure where Tony pulled them) and
repeated across dozens of publications and websites...here is what FC Model
breakdown for 1963 has been reported.
1963 Corvan = 11,161 Units
1963 Greenbriar = 13,761 Units
1963 Rampside = 2,046 Units
___________________________
1963 Total Model Breakdown = 26,968
Here is the issue,
According to GM documents, 1963 plant production at St Louis and Flint for
Corvair FC's was as follows..
1963 Flint = 15,211 (Last VIN built)
1963 St Louis = 14,898 (Last VIN built)
_______________________________________
1963 Total VIN Production = 30,109
So we have 3,141 Corvair FC's NOT accounted for in the Model breakdown?
Since FC's don't really have a "Body number" listed on the Fisher Tag like
cars...can anyone think of a way to accurately "correct" the production by
model information?
Was the original "model" numbers derived from a % built?
Summary...
1961 Model breakdown matches VIN totals exactly at 47,557
1962 Model breakdown matches VIN totals close at 47,557 model vs 14,570 by
VIN (13 more reported by Model)
1962 Model breakdown is off by 3,141...and needs to be revised...
1964 Model breakdown matches VIN totals exactly at 15,199
1965 Model breakdown matches VIN totals exactly at 1,528
Thoughts?
ral1963 at comcast.net
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