Hi Rick,
Wow, thanks for all of your hard work and dedication. Not many folks care about the data like we do.
Actually it's all pretty simple. If we would have published the Bloomfield CKD plant figures earlier, we would have prevented a lot of confusion.
The car model production figures and their totals that we published years ago were prepared in the '60s by Chevrolet and are actually OK. They include the Bloomfield numbers. Chevrolet counted Bloomfield production just as if it was a normal assembly plant like Willow Run.
The assembly plant serial number/production total docs you're using for comparison only include Willow Run, Kansas City, Oakland and Van Nuys. Those docs were meant for use by US Chevy factory reps who had no use for CKD totals. And CKDs had no US serials anyway.
If you take the total of the car model numbers for each year (not including the FC numbers) and deduct the Bloomfield numbers, then they match the WR/KC/OA/VN plant totals. Except for 65 & 66 when Oshawa "built" all Vair CKDs and in that case the numbers match as is. And 68 and 69 are no brainers since there weren't any CKDs in those years.
For example, take 1963:
Add up the six CAR model numbers and they equal 254, 571
Deduct the 1963 Bloomfield Corvair total of 456 and you get 254,115
Then add the WR, OA & VN plant totals (ending serials) and you get 254,115
This works for every year except 1965, 66, 68 and 69:
Take 1965 and add the seven car model numbers = 235,528
There isn't any CKD number to deduct.
Then add up the WR & VN totals = 235,528
We'll publish the Bloomfield numbers and note that they're included in the well worn yearly model production numbers and their totals:
1960: 4,584
1961: 3,000
1962: 1,800
1963: 456
1964: 480
1967: 96
I trust that no one copied with this email will publish the Bloomfield numbers until the May Communique comes out. I worked hard to find them and the credit is all that I get paid :-)
FYI, Canadian production isn't included in any of the above numbers. It was over and above those figures. But the Canadian CKD numbers are included in Canadian Corvair yearly totals.
Thanks again,
Dave
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 3/3/17, Rick Loving <ral1963 at comcast.net> wrote:
Subject: RE: <VV> Missing FC's HELP!!!!!
To: "'David Newell'" <chevrobilia at yahoo.com>, VirtualVairs at corvair.org
Cc: spilatrs at marietta.edu, "'Matt Nall'" <patiomatt at aol.com>, "'Mike McGowan'" <mcvair at sbcglobal.net>, "'Rod Murray'" <rmurray at pittsburghpenguins.com>, "'Ed Bittman'" <ebittman at tampabay.rr.com>, "'Harry Jensen'" <corsa at corvair.org>, "'Kent Sullivan'" <kentsu at corvairkid.com>, "'Mark Corbin'" <airvair at earthlink.net>, "'Bill Hubbell'" <whubbell at umich.edu>, "'Bob Helt'" <BobHelt at aol.com>, "'Bob Marlow'" <rwmarlow at comcast.net>, spilatrs at marietta.edu, corsa at cox.net
Date: Friday, March 3, 2017, 5:08 PM
I am glad we are all on the same page in
wanting to get the most
accuate numbers out there, updating our information, and
preserving the Corvair
history.
I am re-vamping my original email as we kmow what is
amiss...
In regards to the FC only 1961 (13 trucks) and 63 (3141
trucks)
are unaccounted for in the "Model Year breakdown"
For 61 it accefts all 4 types
and for 63 only 3 models are affected.
Since I do not have the details
that Dave does, I mearly determined what the % to toal each
body stayle was and
extrapolated the "new" totals using the same
percentages based on the "correct"
production totals from the VIN charts.
This changed the follow model
breakdown by the units highlighted in RED..and added the
missing 3154 units to
the Total FC production counts.
Hopefully Dave will make adjustments
where possible based on his documentation.
For the car
production...
60,61,62,63,64, & 67 are afftected... I noted that the
defferences in 67 were directly related to the CDK units and
started working
towards calculating "how" the other years exprts
could have affected the Model
breakdone.
I had a hypothisis that the only affcted models would be the
4
door Sedans in the year as they were the expoted models...I
theorized that the
numbers somehow got double counted...where they were
included in the original
model counts, and then rolled back in from a list showing
the exports. It
was the only way the "production" numbers could be
counted higher than the VIN
totals....
So I made the similair adjustements to the sedan Model units
based on the variences between the overal production and the
VIN
production. All changes to "pre-existing totals
are hightlighted in
RED...
All in all only a few models from each year were
affected....I am
curious as to how my exercise mirrors the actual numbers
from.....
I have
attcahed my spread sheet with what I calculated...(and
pasted it here
below)....
NEW SUGGEST
MODEL #'s
TOTAL
1,827,933
USA
1,779,006
CANADA
48,927
YEAR
MODEL
TOTALS
1960
Production
248,684
1960
569
46,155
1960
769
136,152
1960
527
14,628
1960
727
36,562
1960
927
11,926
1960
CAN
3,261
* Adjusted Sedan counts
down 4,584
for Export Varience
1961
Production
334,412
1961
535
5,591
1961
735
20,451
1961
569
18,009
1961
769
50,462
1961
969
33,002
1961
527
16,857
1961
1961
1961
727
24,786
REVISED % T TTL
ORIGINAL % to TOTAL
1961
927
109,945
47,557
% to total
47,570
% to total
1961
R1206
18,493
18,489
0.389
18,493
0.389
1961
R1205
15,812
15,806
0.332
15,812
0.332
1961
R1254
10,790
10,787
0.227
10,790
0.227
1961
R1244
2,475
2,475
0.052
2,475
0.052
1961
CAN
7,739
* Adjusted Sedan counts
down 2,972
for Export Varience
* Adjusted FC counts up for
13
missing units
1962
Production
334,205
1962
735
3,716
1962
935
2,362
1962
569
-
1962
769
34,468
1962
969
47,159
1962
527
16,245
1962
727
18,474
1962
927
144,844
1962
967
13,995
1962
927 S
6,894
1962
967 S
2,574
1962
R1206
18,007
1962
R1205
13,491
1962
R1254
4,102
1962
R1244
369
1962
CAN
7,505
* Adjusted Sedan counts
down 1,800
for Export Varience
1963
Production
291,101
1963
569
-
1963
769
20,456
1963
969
30,889
1963
527
16,680
1963
727
12,378
1963
927
117,917
1963
967
36,693
1963
1963
1963
927 S
11,627
REVISED % T TTL
ORIGINAL % to TOTAL
1963
967 S
7,472
30,109
% to total
26,968
% to total
1963
R1206
15,364
15,364
0.5103
13,761
0.5103
1963
R1205
12,461
12,461
0.4139
11,161
0.4139
1963
R1254
2,284
2,284
0.0759
2,046
0.0759
1963
CAN
6,880
* Adjusted Sedan counts
down 459
for Export Varience
* Adjusted FC counts up for
3,141
missing units
1964
Production
214,003
1964
569
-
1964
769
16,055
1964
969
21,686
1964
527
22,968
1964
727
-
1964
927
88,440
1964
967
31,045
1964
627
6,480
1964
667
4,761
1964
R1206
6,201
1964
R1205
8,147
1964
R1254
851
1964
CAN
7,369
* Adjusted Sedan counts
down 480
for Export Varience
1965
Production
247,092
1965
139
17,560
1965
539
37,157
1965
137
36,747
1965
537
88,954
1965
567
26,466
1965
737
20,291
1965
767
8,353
1965
R1206
1,528
1965
CAN
10,036
1966
Production
109,880
1966
139
8,779
1966
539
12,497
1966
137
24,045
1966
537
37,605
1966
567
10,345
1966
737
7,330
1966
767
3,142
1966
CAN
6,137
1967
Production
27,157
1967
139
2,911
1967
539
3,109
1967
137
9,257
1967
537
9,771
1967
567
2,109
* Adjusted Sedan counts
down 96 for
Export Varience
1968
Production
15,399
1968
137
7,206
1968
537
6,807
1968
567
1,386
1969
Production
6,000
1969
137
2,762
1969
537
2,717
1969
567
521
Exported Corvairs
11,589
(34,875 total
exported Corvairs from
1960-1969)
Belgium
Denmark
Mexico
S Africa
Swiss
S America
TOTALS
1960
1,841
171
1,383
405
630
384
4,814
1961
616
104
633
720
554
345
2,972
1962
598
18
460
184
429
111
1,800
1963
337
0
0
0
122
0
459
1964
216
0
0
0
264
0
480
1965
336
0
0
0
224
0
560
1966
264
0
0
0
144
0
408
1967
48
0
0
0
48
0
96
1968
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
1969
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
TOTALS
4,256
293
2,476
1,309
2,415
840
11,589
*All
Estimated to meet VIN Productin Totals
-----Original Message-----
From: David Newell [mailto:chevrobilia at yahoo.com]
Sent:
Friday, March 03, 2017 4:57 AM
To: VirtualVairs at corvair.org
Cc:
ral1963 at comcast.net; spilatrs at marietta.edu; Matt Nall; Mike
McGowan; Rod Murray;
Ed Bittman; Harry Jensen; Kent Sullivan; Mark Corbin; Bill
Hubbell; Bob Helt;
Bob Marlow
Subject: RE: <VV> Missing FC's HELP!!!!!
Rick, Matt,
Rod and all...
Thanks for bringing up this important and long overdue
issue.
Your sharp eye, Rick, couldn't have had better timing
for taming those pesky FC
numbers. Mike McGowan and I've been planning an article
for the Communique this
year on just this subject. It's one of four pieces
I'm determined to do before
year's end or whenever Mike and Harry retire. Which is
when I'll bow out, thank
you.
The FC production numbers by year and model -- as published
in The
Corvair Decade and everywhere else Corvair FC numbers have
ever been printed --
go back to the early 1970s when all we had were car numbers.
The FC figures were
a huge gap in our knowledge. I'm the guilty party who
requested them, plus the
62-63 Spyder RPO and 65-66 L87 turbo numbers, from
Chevrolet. They've been
reprinted a jillion times at least. We had no reason to
question 'em, nor did
anyone else.
In 1988 I came across the month-ending serial numbers for
each plant. They were a revelation, but like you I caught
the 1963 FC
inconsistencies and wrote a memo to file that flagged them
as a possible
"breakthrough" in numbers research. But at the
time there was nothing else to
check the plant totals against, much less cross check the
original numbers
supplied by Chevy.
Eventually holy grail docs appeared, confirming that
the Flint and St Louis totals were correct and just how
faulty some of the
original Chevy-supplied figures were. In my article I'll
show how that was done
and how the process also corrected the '63 model
production numbers.
Your
observation about the 13 FC anomaly in '61 is well taken
and right on. But
there's major goof besides that one. It'll surprise
and probably dismay you, in
that it's taken me so damn long to write about it. But
maybe you'll all forgive
this numbers weary old fart with failing eyesight and way
too much historical
trivia to ever have time to explore.
So....help has arrived. I'll fix it.
But everyone has to get on board and spread the new figures.
Rick, your
questioning the old figures now should help validate the new
numbers. I've been
worried that some folks might not easily embrace the
corrections. We'll need to
spread the word so that whenever anyone edits or reprints
what they've
previously published (with the old numbers) they can fix it.
It should be
"official" CORSA policy, pointed out on the web
site, but I know that's
expecting too much.
Here's to all of us who care about numerical
accuracy. And truth in general. Somebody's gotta get it
right, 'eh?
:-)
Dave Newell
History Editor, CORSA Communique
--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 3/2/17,
Rod Murray <rmurray at pittsburghpenguins.com> wrote:
Subject:
RE: <VV> Missing FC's
HELP!!!!!
To:
"ral1963 at comcast.net" <ral1963 at comcast.net>,
"spilatrs at marietta.edu"
<spilatrs at marietta.edu>,
"chevrobilia at yahoo.com"
<chevrobilia at yahoo.com>
Cc: "Matt Nall"
<patiomatt at aol.com>
Date: Thursday, March 2, 2017, 9:41
AM
Hey rick,
Seems like Steve Spilatro and dave newell
might be good sources to check in with.
Good luck w/ the
project...count me amongst those that appreciate
thorough fact-finding and
numerical accuracy.
- rod
Rod
Murray
Senior Director, Production and Game
Presentation
Pittsburgh Penguins rmurray at pittsburghpenguins.com
Office:
412-255-1906 | Fax: 412-255-1980 | Mobile:
412-719-3449
PPG
Paints Arena | 1001 Fifth Avenue | Pittsburgh, PA
|
15219
-----Original Message-----
From: VirtualVairs
[mailto:virtualvairs-bounces at corvair.org]
On
Behalf Of Matt Nall via VirtualVairs
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017
11:07 AM
To: virtualvairs at corvair.org
Subject: <VV>
Missing FC's HELP!!!!!
Rick Loving / Vair Historian needs
some help!!
His email is
Does
anyone know the "oldest" published model numbers
for Corvair Forward
Control trucks (and where those totals came from?)?
When you
look at all the historical numbers for 1963 FC
production there is a 3,141
variance between what has been reported
historically...and I want to fix
it!!!
...according to the Corvair Decade (not sure where
Tony
pulled them) and repeated across dozens of publications
and
websites...here is what FC Model breakdown for 1963 has
been
reported.
1963 Corvan = 11,161 Units
1963 Greenbriar =
13,761 Units
1963 Rampside = 2,046
Units
___________________________
1963 Total Model Breakdown =
26,968
Here is the issue,
According to GM documents, 1963
plant production at St Louis and Flint for Corvair
FC's was as
follows..
1963 Flint = 15,211 (Last VIN built)
1963 St
Louis = 14,898 (Last VIN built)
_______________________________________
1963 Total VIN Production =
30,109
So we have 3,141 Corvair FC's NOT accounted for in
the
Model breakdown?
Since FC's don't really have a "Body
number"
listed on the Fisher Tag like cars...can anyone think
of a way to
accurately "correct" the production by model
information?
Was the
original "model" numbers derived from a %
built?
Summary...
1961 Model breakdown matches VIN
totals exactly at 47,557
1962 Model breakdown matches VIN totals close
at 47,557 model vs 14,570 by VIN (13 more reported by
Model)
1962 Model breakdown is off by 3,141...and needs to
be
revised...
1964 Model breakdown matches VIN totals exactly at
15,199
1965 Model breakdown matches VIN totals exactly at
1,528
Thoughts?
ral1963 at comcast.net
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